Another topic on gyro angle

Mittelwaechter · 05-01-16, 02:58 PM

"Your message is too short..." - I love it.

I don't write the whole essay again now.

In short: you described an attack from behind the target - in your first posting (130°) as in your sketch. A T1/T2 will not move right next to the target and turn into a 90° angle of attack.

As they did it you'll have to better your position to enable the target moving into your desired 90° hit.

Von Due · 05-01-16, 03:06 PM

The 130 was the track angle. From what I understand that equals the AoB if the target was on the same course but dead ahead of me. It is a theoretical AoB in a sense. So here, the target would not necessarily be in front of me, it could be abeam or behind me depending on speed and course at the time of launch.

Both the sub and the target is moving so there is no way of telling really if I am behind the target, abeam or ahead of it at the time of launch or impact, judging only by the sketch and the track angle.

Look at page 1-4
https://archive.hnsa.org/doc/attack/index.htm#platei

Mittelwaechter · 05-01-16, 03:28 PM

The function of the German TDC (TZR/Torpedo Ziel Rechner) is not described in your US Torpedo Fire Control Manual.

The TDC does the math for you!

Von Due · 05-01-16, 03:51 PM

The page, and that one diagram in particular was more about showing what I mean by a non zero gyro angle shot.

About the maths. The TDC is great but it has some shortcomings.

For one thing, it can not (in the game at least) prospect the torpedo track time, from launch to impact. Only a rough estimate based on the most currect range reading prior to launch, meaning it will be the range to where the target is now, not in the future when it's hit. The TDC has no idea what the range to target will be from launch to impact. That's why the game's timer is always off, sometimes by several 10s of seconds and that even when you have the AI do all the plotting for you. Only by setting the track range manually, based on plots or other calculations, can you get the actual track range and the correct time.

If it auto-updated range to target based on sub speed and course, and target speed, course and AoB, then it could possibly prospect it but as it is, it can't.

It seems the game's TDC is optimised for zero gyro angle shots, offering less help when setting up other solutions unless there are undocumented ways of using the TDC.

Here is a scenario where non zero shots are particularly interesting.

You are traveling parallell to and slightly behind a convoy. Parallell offers the benefits of staying with the moving convoy and you have to make only a small turn to move away in case the escort breaks off to search for you. Smaller turn, less time to perform the turn, more time to get away. You also get a cleaner shot on ships in the center and on the far side.

Now the only way to get those torpedos to hit is by using non zero shots.

bstanko6 · 05-01-16, 04:40 PM

This is all I can say about this topic!

bstanko6 · 05-01-16, 04:51 PM

Von Due, you are over thinking a few things.

The TDC was engineered as a computer that worked out problems like distance from periscope to torpedoes.

I think you need to look up technical specs on TDC to get the answer you want!

Now get back to sea and sink some ships!

All joking aside. If you enter correct info in the TDC, it doesn't matter, the torp will hit, you just face errors in the torp sliding off the hull, or not detonating. Your right, the TDC is bias towards zero angle shots. It's an analog system with many flaws that a zero angle corrected.

Zero angle shots were taught and practiced at academies! Even Doenitz taught classes at times about it. This is the best angle for success.

Think of it this way, your stalking a convoy for a 24 hours, you prep your boat, take your measurements, and fire your torp...

Do you really want to waste all your effort on an odd angle shot that fails you?

Von Due · 05-01-16, 05:01 PM

That's the thing. This is a game and how the TDC works is really up to the game designers. For a real submarine then absolutely, the specs and navy school would teach me what I needed to know. For games it's a bit different, if the designers so choose and if the writers of the manuals so choose. Real world data only applies if the game designers applied them.

In the real world, one would work with fractions of a degree on the gyro setting. Stock game only gives you the nearest whole number, to mention one thing.

But back on topic and the original question, as this veered off a bit.

Is there a topic somewhere, or a document, on how the game works when setting up non zero shots?

05-01-16, 02:58 PM	#1
Mittelwaechter The Old Man Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 1,304 Downloads: 35 Uploads: 0	"Your message is too short..." - I love it. I don't write the whole essay again now. In short: you described an attack from behind the target - in your first posting (130°) as in your sketch. A T1/T2 will not move right next to the target and turn into a 90° angle of attack. As they did it you'll have to better your position to enable the target moving into your desired 90° hit. Last edited by Mittelwaechter; 05-01-16 at 03:06 PM.

05-01-16, 03:28 PM	#3
Mittelwaechter The Old Man Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 1,304 Downloads: 35 Uploads: 0	The function of the German TDC (TZR/Torpedo Ziel Rechner) is not described in your US Torpedo Fire Control Manual. The TDC does the math for you! __________________ 10 happy wolves rear 90 blinded, ensnared sheep. 90 happy sheep banish the wolves. Arrest the 1% - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQ6hg1oNeGE

05-01-16, 03:51 PM	#4
Von Due Sea Lord Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 1,690 Downloads: 30 Uploads: 0	The page, and that one diagram in particular was more about showing what I mean by a non zero gyro angle shot. About the maths. The TDC is great but it has some shortcomings. For one thing, it can not (in the game at least) prospect the torpedo track time, from launch to impact. Only a rough estimate based on the most currect range reading prior to launch, meaning it will be the range to where the target is now, not in the future when it's hit. The TDC has no idea what the range to target will be from launch to impact. That's why the game's timer is always off, sometimes by several 10s of seconds and that even when you have the AI do all the plotting for you. Only by setting the track range manually, based on plots or other calculations, can you get the actual track range and the correct time. If it auto-updated range to target based on sub speed and course, and target speed, course and AoB, then it could possibly prospect it but as it is, it can't. It seems the game's TDC is optimised for zero gyro angle shots, offering less help when setting up other solutions unless there are undocumented ways of using the TDC. Here is a scenario where non zero shots are particularly interesting. You are traveling parallell to and slightly behind a convoy. Parallell offers the benefits of staying with the moving convoy and you have to make only a small turn to move away in case the escort breaks off to search for you. Smaller turn, less time to perform the turn, more time to get away. You also get a cleaner shot on ships in the center and on the far side. Now the only way to get those torpedos to hit is by using non zero shots. Last edited by Von Due; 05-01-16 at 04:03 PM.

05-01-16, 04:40 PM	#5
bstanko6 Admiral Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: Murwik Naval Academy Posts: 2,130 Downloads: 390 Uploads: 13	This is all I can say about this topic! __________________ [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] BSTANKO6'S SH5 NAVAL ACADEMY http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPbe...W2NArCA/videos DISCORD https://discord.gg/6tFeTSUmVc Last edited by bstanko6; 05-10-16 at 05:12 AM.

05-01-16, 04:51 PM	#6
bstanko6 Admiral Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: Murwik Naval Academy Posts: 2,130 Downloads: 390 Uploads: 13	Von Due, you are over thinking a few things. The TDC was engineered as a computer that worked out problems like distance from periscope to torpedoes. I think you need to look up technical specs on TDC to get the answer you want! Now get back to sea and sink some ships! All joking aside. If you enter correct info in the TDC, it doesn't matter, the torp will hit, you just face errors in the torp sliding off the hull, or not detonating. Your right, the TDC is bias towards zero angle shots. It's an analog system with many flaws that a zero angle corrected. Zero angle shots were taught and practiced at academies! Even Doenitz taught classes at times about it. This is the best angle for success. Think of it this way, your stalking a convoy for a 24 hours, you prep your boat, take your measurements, and fire your torp... Do you really want to waste all your effort on an odd angle shot that fails you? __________________ [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] BSTANKO6'S SH5 NAVAL ACADEMY http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPbe...W2NArCA/videos DISCORD https://discord.gg/6tFeTSUmVc Last edited by bstanko6; 05-01-16 at 05:01 PM.

05-01-16, 03:06 PM	#2
Von Due Sea Lord Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 1,690 Downloads: 30 Uploads: 0	The 130 was the track angle. From what I understand that equals the AoB if the target was on the same course but dead ahead of me. It is a theoretical AoB in a sense. So here, the target would not necessarily be in front of me, it could be abeam or behind me depending on speed and course at the time of launch. Both the sub and the target is moving so there is no way of telling really if I am behind the target, abeam or ahead of it at the time of launch or impact, judging only by the sketch and the track angle. Look at page 1-4 https://archive.hnsa.org/doc/attack/index.htm#platei

05-01-16, 05:01 PM	#7
Von Due Sea Lord Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 1,690 Downloads: 30 Uploads: 0	That's the thing. This is a game and how the TDC works is really up to the game designers. For a real submarine then absolutely, the specs and navy school would teach me what I needed to know. For games it's a bit different, if the designers so choose and if the writers of the manuals so choose. Real world data only applies if the game designers applied them. In the real world, one would work with fractions of a degree on the gyro setting. Stock game only gives you the nearest whole number, to mention one thing. But back on topic and the original question, as this veered off a bit. Is there a topic somewhere, or a document, on how the game works when setting up non zero shots?