Who Started World War II?

[Fahnenbohn]

Originally Posted by Raptor1

This is exactly the attitude of a man who wants to legitimize his war.

Really Raptor1, do you think that Hitler would have made so reasonable proposals if he wanted a war ? If Poland didn't accept, that was not because of exagerate german proposals. Impossible.

Originally Posted by Raptor1

If he had wanted peace, he'd not have signed an agreement with the Soviet Union.

On the contrary ! It was a non-agression pact ! And if really Britain/France defended Poland, then they shouldn't have declared war on Germany, because USSR was also guilty. What justice for Poland ? A half one is not justice.

[Rockin Robbins]

Fahrenbohn, what kind of kool-aid are you drinking? Hitler was not "reasonable." He outright killed millions of his own countrymen for a hobby. His non-aggression pact with Russia was a transparent ploy to hold them at arms length until he was ready to attack them.

He was a psychopathic madman, a traitor to his own country, a ruthless killer of those who would have been his chief support, a man so stupid that he made not one fatal mistake (our peronal quota), but dozens of mistakes that absolutely guaranteed his complete defeat and the destruction of the nation he pretended to lead.

In fact, Germany was only a pawn in a game to make Hitler a "big man." He didn't give a rat's patootie whether Germany lived or died. In fact he sentenced the entire nation to death at the end and only the purposeful failure of better men to execute Hitler's suicidal orders kept it from happening.

His was a fantasy world of Valhalla and all kinds of mythological mumbo jumbo where he was a foolish, psychopathic, murderous and self-crucifying god. He was an idiot. He richly deserved to die as horribly as possible. Hiding in a hole and being the instrument of his own destruction was pretty appropriate. Wish the Russians had got hold of him though. They would have known what to do with a petty criminal.

It is only because they were defeated by better nations that instead of ceasing to exist as a nation and becoming the just spoils of conquest, as would have happened to his enemies if Hitler had won, the United States and allies at great expense rebuilt Germany, set her up on her own two legs and walked away to let her become a 100% legitimate citizen of the nations of the world. Germany is a better country today because she lost World War II.

And yet there are those here in this forum who fantacize about the glorious times when German citizens were put in cages to be worked to death, and if that didn't work, to be shot or gassed, their gold teeth extracted, their jewelry collected, cataloged and warehoused, their property confiscated all by a man with Jewish ancestry: Hitler. These were the very same Jews who stood steadfastly behind Germany in the first world war and contributed finances toward that effort far out of size to their numbers, the very people who would have been important support in the war. But all leaders must have a hobby, don't they? Surely this is reasonable conduct for a great leader. I have some very dry land in the Florida Everglades I'll let you buy for a very low price.

Hitler was the embodiment of evil. There was no love in that man. He made no agreements he was bound to keep. Everything was about himself and everything else was expendable. He was most evil for the nation he pretended to lead, guard and love. Failure to see that fact is evidence that the cognitive abilities of his apologists do not deserve the respect of debate or even a civil greeting. Engaging in any manner of conversation with these morally bankrupt aplogists is inappropriate and useless. They can only be repudiated.

[Fahnenbohn]

Originally Posted by Raptor1

In any case, he's right, it does have little in common with Hitler's ideas.

Maybe he's surprised that Hitler made so generous proposals to a people in whom he had little respect.

But let's admit that Poland had accepted Hitler's deal. Then, Hitler would have had no more pretext to invade Poland ...

[Fahnenbohn]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

His non-aggression pact with Russia was a transparent ploy to hold them at arms length until he was ready to attack them.

I have a very different point of view. I think rather that Staline made his best shot with this "non-agression pact". He exclaimed himself after the signing : "I cheated Hitler !" Now, russian borders were common with german ones, and the communism was ready to conquere Europe.

Let's see his face on this picture during the signing :

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

He was a psychopathic madman, a traitor to his own country, a ruthless killer of those who would have been his chief support, a man so stupid that he made not one fatal mistake (our peronal quota), but dozens of mistakes that absolutely guaranteed his complete defeat and the destruction of the nation he pretended to lead.

In fact, Germany was only a pawn in a game to make Hitler a "big man." He didn't give a rat's patootie whether Germany lived or died. In fact he sentenced the entire nation to death at the end and only the purposeful failure of better men to execute Hitler's suicidal orders kept it from happening.

His was a fantasy world of Valhalla and all kinds of mythological mumbo jumbo where he was a foolish, psychopathic, murderous and self-crucifying god. He was an idiot. He richly deserved to die as horribly as possible. Hiding in a hole and being the instrument of his own destruction was pretty appropriate. Wish the Russians had got hold of him though. They would have known what to do with a petty criminal.

I'm sure all this is pure fantasm. No sorry, I know it.

[Raptor1]

Originally Posted by Fahnenbohn

Poland didn't want to hear anything. And Britain did nothing to calm the situation.

Can you blame them, considering what happened to Czechoslovakia?

Originally Posted by Fahnenbohn

Because the signing of the Polish-British defense treaty was a total surprise. Britain knew that Hitler was determined to solve the corridor problem, one way or another. A conflict between Poland and Germany should NOT have requiered war between Germany and Britain/France.

It would have required one between Germany and Poland, though, and it's Germany who unilaterally made the demands and the decision to invade. Britain and France weren't willing to allow Germany to attack Poland without consequence, so I supposed it would have required a war between those nations as well.

Originally Posted by Fahnenbohn

Yes, in case of invasion only. So if Germany and USSR invaded Poland, this is the fault of Britain/Poland/USA who didn't want to leave the possibility for Germany to solve this scandalous fact of her country cut in 2 parts, without communication. --> So we can say that Britain/USA wanted the war against the Third Reich. Poland was an excuse, and She was the victim of her own pride.

About France this is a little more complexe ...

*

Of course it was in case of invasion only. It was signed under the assumption that the invasion would have taken place. The German army was already under orders to launch the operation when it was signed.

Originally Posted by Fahnenbohn

Really Raptor1, do you think that Hitler would have made so reasonable proposals if he wanted a war ? If Poland didn't accept, that was not because of exagerate german proposals. Impossible.

How reasonable the proposal was is irrelevant, because it wasn't a proposal at all. It was delivered under conditions that would not have allowed it to be signed. The Germans demanded (from the British ambassador in Berlin) that the Polish send a negotiator with full powers to Berlin within a single day, and no attempt was made to continue negotiations with more time or under other conditions. Moreover, it was delivered after the decision to invade has been made and, in many ways, already put into motion.

Originally Posted by Fahnenbohn

On the contrary ! It was a non-agression pact ! And if really Britain/France defended Poland, then they shouldn't have declared war on Germany, because USSR was also guilty. What justice for Poland ? A half one is not justice.

The Pact, and particularly its secret protocol, covered more than non-aggression. As for justice, I wasn't talking about that in the slightest, just about who started the war. Of course, the time for getting justice should have been at the Munich Agreement.

Originally Posted by Fahnenbohn

But let's admit that Poland had accepted Hitler's deal. Then, Hitler would have had no more pretext to invade Poland ...

Which is exactly why it was delivered in the way that it was. Hitler wanted a pretext to invade Poland. That is also why deception operations like the attack on the Gleiwitz radio tower took place.

[Tchocky]

You know, just a thought. We all have in our memory some Hitler's speech where he is speaking, or rather yelling like a hysterical man. But this is very misleading. Privately, he was not a fool, but a affable man, peaceful and balanced in his language. He was also very cultured. He had just a passion for Germany. That such a man wanted to put to fire and sword Europe is hardly conceivable. But you will say that he concealed his intentions. I answer : too easy.

Finally we're getting somewhere.

HITLER WAS NICE TO HIS DOG, GUYS.

[Rockin Robbins]

Originally Posted by Fahnenbohn

I'm sure all this is pure fantasm. No sorry, I know it.

You wouldn't know "fantasm" (sic) if it bit you on the patootie. What you know is not relevant to reality. Thank God you are in charge of nothing. I would not believe you if you told me what you had for lunch.

If you and your vaccuous brained buddies ever develop brain cells and organize to recreate the "glorious past" we will have to ensure you share Hitler's fate. Unlike you and your ilk, we will not enjoy it. But you can remember it to your grave. It shall not happen again, no matter what the cost. Rats must be exterminated.

[Fahnenbohn]

Originally Posted by Raptor1

It would have required one between Germany and Poland, though, and it's Germany who unilaterally made the demands and the decision to invade.

Because Poland was responsible of maintaining this injustice. Thus war was legitimate.

Originally Posted by Raptor1

Of course it was in case of invasion only. It was signed under the assumption that the invasion would have taken place. The German army was already under orders to launch the operation when it was signed.

Yes, because there was no hope to do elsewhere. All negociations were refused, and even considered as a war declaration by Poland !

Originally Posted by Raptor1

How reasonable the proposal was is irrelevant, because it wasn't a proposal at all. It was delivered under conditions that would not have allowed it to be signed. The Germans demanded (from the British ambassador in Berlin) that the Polish send a negotiator with full powers to Berlin within a single day.

Hey ! Germany tried to negociate since 1937 ! NOW, it was Poland who had to prove her peace desire ! Only Poland could still prevent the invasion, the timer had started. Hitler had already been enough patient.

Originally Posted by Raptor1

Hitler wanted a pretext to invade Poland.

I think I've given sufficent evidence to prove the contrary. No wait, I have yet many other things to say in fact ! Wait for the next posts !

Originally Posted by Raptor1

That is also why deception operations like the attack on the Gleiwitz radio tower took place.

I think that this fake was destinated only to the public opinion. Time of information, so time of propaganda !

[Tchocky]

Hey ! Germany tried to negociate since 1937 ! NOW, it was Poland who had to prove her peace desire ! Only Poland could still prevent the invasion, the timer had started. Hitler had already been enough patient.

So to avoid war you have to prove you want peace - and if a neighboring country invades it's your fault for not proving you didn't invite them?

Turn off the computer. This is a waste of everyone's time and you know it.

[Fahnenbohn]

Originally Posted by Tchocky

if a neighboring country invades it's your fault for not proving you didn't invite them ?

In our case : if a neighboring country has stolen you something, and she refuses that you use it, is it unfair that you invite yourself in her home to recover it ? NO

Bye.

[Tchocky]

Originally Posted by Fahnenbohn

In our case : if a neighboring country has stolen you something, and she refuses that you use it, is it unfair that you invite yourself in her home to recover it ? NO

Bye.

Varying definitions of "stole" in play. None of which are applicable.

And you are being dangerously stupid here.

If Germany was interested in regaining what they felt had been stolen, then they would done exactly that.

Not almost all of western Poland.

Not in conjunction with the USSR.

Again, stop.

[Fahnenbohn]

Originally Posted by Tchocky

Not in conjunction with the USSR.

Why ? Britain and France was not on the german side. So in case of they would declare war on Germany, Germany was free on her oriental border. And Hitler was heavily counting on that pact in order "democracies" don't declare war on Germany :
- first he was not the only invader,
- and second he could concentrate his armies on the west side.

Again, this is showing that Britain, supported by usa, wanted the war.

[Tchocky]

Jesus Christ.


He was counting on the fact that Britain and France wouldn't declare war in spite of the mutual defense pacts?

Wow, Hitler was more of an idiot than I thought. This somehow proves that Britain wanted war? Come on.

And your rubbish argument about Danzig is refuted by Hitler himself. Here's the man himself

Hitler told his generals on 23 May 1939 that the reason for invading Poland was "Danzig is not the object to which it goes. It is for us the extension of the living space in the East."

Source

Stop lying about easily proven historical records.

[Raptor1]

Originally Posted by Fahnenbohn

Because Poland was responsible of maintaining this injustice. Thus war was legitimate.

Huh. I guess it's easier to legitimize the complete annexation, occupation and division of a nation-state than I thought it was.

Originally Posted by Fahnenbohn

Yes, because there was no hope to do elsewhere. All negociations were refused, and even considered as a war declaration by Poland !

Even if Poland was willing to agree to Germany's demands, Munich has already proven how much they can be relied on. There really was no point in Poland negotiating, and Hitler knew this.

Originally Posted by Fahnenbohn

Hey ! Germany tried to negociate since 1937 ! NOW, it was Poland who had to prove her peace desire ! Only Poland could still prevent the invasion, the timer had started. Hitler had already been enough patient.

Hitler could have prevented the invasion, there was nothing forcing him to invade and occupy Poland. The only way Poland could prevent the invasion was if it submitted itself to be occupied.

Originally Posted by Fahnenbohn

I think I've given sufficent evidence to prove the contrary. No wait, I have yet many other things to say in fact ! Wait for the next posts !

The notion that Hitler wanted a peaceful resolution with Poland (unless that resolution involved Poland's complete surrender, I guess) contradicts much of what he's said and done prior to, during and after the invasion. Any evidence you give to the contrary has to explain this discrepancy and it manifestly does not.

Originally Posted by Fahnenbohn

I think that this fake was destinated only to the public opinion. Time of information, so time of propaganda !

Of course it was. If Germany had a legitimate reason to invade Poland, it would not have been necessary to forge a justification.

Originally Posted by Tchocky

He was counting on the fact that Britain and France wouldn't declare war in spite of the mutual defense pacts?

Wow, Hitler was more of an idiot than I thought. This somehow proves that Britain wanted war? Come on.

I don't know if he was counting on the British and French not getting involved, but he was certainly hoping that would be the case. In any case, he's proven himself to be an idiot on far more occasions than I can count.

[Joefour]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

You wouldn't know "fantasm" (sic) if it bit you on the patootie. What you know is not relevant to reality. Thank God you are in charge of nothing. I would not believe you if you told me what you had for lunch.

If you and your vaccuous brained buddies ever develop brain cells and organize to recreate the "glorious past" we will have to ensure you share Hitler's fate. Unlike you and your ilk, we will not enjoy it. But you can remember it to your grave. It shall not happen again, no matter what the cost. Rats must be exterminated.

Perhaps some of us here should go back in the postings a bit and reread Jimbuna's rules that he laid out. Keep it civil and objective.