Who Started World War II?

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Fahnenbohn

@ Oberon. After peaceful settlement of German-Polish dispute and restitution of its colonies, Hitler had only 2 problems to solve : restarting talks on disarmament, and organizing an international conference to create a Jewish state somewhere. And then retire. But that is forgetting Britain, USSR, and Roosevelt...

If Hitler was all that smart and hard done by, then why didn't he just let the Danzig issue drop and come back to it at a later date? Rather than go to war, why didn't he just back down and bide his time. No one had a gun to his head, Poland wasn't about to invade Germany. He could have backed down, spun some political diatribe about it, and just continued building diplomatic relations with the other nations of Europe.
Heck, he sabotaged his own progress when he tore up the Munich Agreement. Britain and France sold out their ally in that agreement, that's how desperate they were to avoid war, but Hitler showed that he didn't care if he had war or not, he just wanted his land, no matter how he got it.
If he had kept to the Munich Agreement and left Danzig for a while, or even focused on improving relations with Poland so that some form of access to Danzig could be made then he could have painted himself as a more reasonable person, and could well have created the anti-Soviet alliance that he deeply wanted.

[August]

[QUOTE=Joefour;2372977]Yes, technically Fahnenbohn IS right. FDR was supplying Britain with war materiel in violation of international laws.

Here is just one article on the subject www.historyarticles.com/undeclared-war/

So what? Many countries have supplied combatants during wartime without going to war, sometimes they have even supplied both sides simultaneously so he can quibble all he wants but the officially recognized start of war begins with a declaration of such and that came first from mister hitler.

[Raptor1]

Originally Posted by Fahnenbohn

@ Oberon. After peaceful settlement of German-Polish dispute and restitution of its colonies, Hitler had only 2 problems to solve : restarting talks on disarmament, and organizing an international conference to create a Jewish state somewhere. And then retire. But that is forgetting Britain, USSR, and Roosevelt...

There was no peaceful resolution to the German-Polish dispute. Hitler didn't plan to annex Danzig and call it a day, a complete occupation of Poland was very much the goal from the start. The German army was committed to the invasion long before the smokescreen diplomacy of the last few days of August, 1939 took place. This is consistent with Hitler's earlier actions concerning Czechoslovakia, as well as his ideological views on the need for Lebensraum.

[Fahnenbohn]

@ Oberon : Your arguments are very good, and you try to stay objective. I have a real pleasure to discuss with you !

Originally Posted by Oberon

If Hitler was all that smart and hard done by, then why didn't he just let the Danzig issue drop and come back to it at a later date?

Because that was the last territorial problem that he wanted to solve in Europe (he abandonned the idea of recovering Alsace-Lorraine). And he was determined to find a solution.

Originally Posted by Oberon

but Hitler showed that he didn't care if he had war or not, he just wanted his land, no matter how he got it. If he had kept to the Munich Agreement and left Danzig for a while, or even focused on improving relations with Poland so that some form of access to Danzig could be made ...

This is going to be invalidated by my presentation.

Originally Posted by Oberon

... then he could have painted himself as a more reasonable person.

No, he would have painted himself as someone weak and irresolute.

[Oberon]

Eh...uh...

Well, I'm not sure what happened there, but Fahn had a piece on the 16 point peace plan that Hitler brought forward to the Polish representatives on the 29th August 1939.

The list is reasonable, however one has to remember that Hitler had already broken his word once, there was no guarantee that he would not do it a second time. These were the thoughts in the mind of the British cabinet.
It was, in short, something of an ultimatum, a case of "accept this by 31st August or we'll invade you" particularly in how it demanded a Polish plenipotentiary to arrive in Berlin by noon the next day or else.

Now I can understand how there would be perhaps some irritation at delaying attempts in negotiations, but an ultimatum, particularly after the events of the Munich agreement, was not the way to go and would only serve to make war inevitable. Britain had already backed down once and had sand thrown in her eyes for it, she would not back down again.

Again, it's an example of where Hitler shot his bolt too early, some patience might well have netted the agreement, some softer words and less confrontation could well have soothed the British consternation away, but he went in bull headed and the lot came crashing down.

I mean, German war with Poland was almost inevitable from the start, we know that there were plans made for the partition of Poland in the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact of 23rd August, and the initial German invasion was planned for the 26th, these plans had been put in place as far back as May, and since Poland and France had had a treaty since 1921 that would have meant war with France anyway. Britain getting in on the deal was supposed to add extra incentive to Hitler to not go down the invasion route.

Finally, let's end with a speech that Hitler gave his generals back in May 1939:

With minor exceptions German national unification has been achieved. Further successes cannot be achieved without bloodshed. Poland will always be on the side of our adversaries... Danzig is not the objective. It is a matter of expanding our living space in the east, of making our food supply secure, and solving the problem of the Baltic states. To provide sufficient food you must have sparsely settled areas. There is therefore no question of sparing Poland, and the decision remains to attack Poland at the first opportunity. We cannot expect a repetition of Czechoslovakia. There will be fighting.

[Fahnenbohn]

Originally Posted by Oberon

Well, I'm not sure what happened there, but Fahn had a piece on the 16 point peace plan that Hitler brought forward to the Polish representatives on the 29th August 1939.

Incomplete text, I have to re-work on it. Wait for my answer.

Originally Posted by Oberon

Finally, let's end with a speech that Hitler gave his generals back in May 1939 :

"With minor exceptions German national unification has been achieved. Further successes cannot be achieved without bloodshed. Poland will always be on the side of our adversaries... Danzig is not the objective. It is a matter of expanding our living space in the east, of making our food supply secure, and solving the problem of the Baltic states. To provide sufficient food you must have sparsely settled areas. There is therefore no question of sparing Poland, and the decision remains to attack Poland at the first opportunity. We cannot expect a repetition of Czechoslovakia. There will be fighting."

I would like to check the quote by myself. Can you give me a link to your source please ?

[Fahnenbohn]

Originally Posted by Oberon

The list is reasonable, however one has to remember that Hitler had already broken his word once, there was no guarantee that he would not do it a second time. These were the thoughts in the mind of the British cabinet.

And how could Hitler justify the invasion of Poland if the Polish Government had accepted the negotiations ??

Originally Posted by Oberon

I mean, German war with Poland was almost inevitable from the start.

Maybe, maybe not. All was depending on the Polish behaviour. Why did she* refuse such reasonable proposals ?

* : sorry for my bad english, i really dont know if i'm allowed to say "she" for the Poland [/QUOTE]

Originally Posted by Oberon

France had a treaty since 1921 that would have meant war with France anyway.

Not necessarly, as I'm going to explain.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Fahnenbohn

* : sorry for my bad english, i really dont know if i'm allowed to say "she" for the Poland

Yes, it's common in English to use "she" for anything from a possession (car, boat, guitar) to a country.

[Fahnenbohn]

You know, just a thought. We all have in our memory some Hitler's speech where he is speaking, or rather yelling like a hysterical man. But this is very misleading. Privately, he was not a fool, but a affable man, peaceful and balanced in his language. He was also very cultured. He had just a passion for Germany. That such a man wanted to put to fire and sword Europe is hardly conceivable. But you will say that he concealed his intentions. I answer : too easy.

On the other hand, he had a certain contempt for the Slav peoples, I agree (though some Slavic people have a very germanic appearance !). He was ready to impose his conditions for Poland. But this didn't justify a war to the death !

[HunterICX]

Originally Posted by Oberon

Eh...uh...

Well, I'm not sure what happened there, but Fahn had a piece on the 16 point peace plan that Hitler brought forward to the Polish representatives on the 29th August 1939.

You mean this one I quoted below?

Originally Posted by Fahnenbohn

Incomplete text, I have to re-work on it. Wait for my answer.

I don't think you'll have too as it's easily found online:

[Text of the German proposal of August 29, 1939:]
Proposal for a settlement of the Danzig-Corridor problem and the German-Polish minority question:
The situation between the German Reich and Poland is now such that any further incident could lead to action by the military forces that have taken position on both sides of the frontier. Any peaceful solution must be such that the basic causes of this situation are eliminated so that they are not simply repeated, which would mean that not only eastern Europe but other areas as well would be subject to the same tension. The causes of this situation are rooted in, first, the intolerable border that was specified by the dictated peace of Versailles [of 1919], and, second, the intolerable treatment of the minority populations in the lost territories.
In making these proposals, the German Reich government is motivated by the desire to achieve a permanent solution that will put an end to the intolerable situation arising from the present border demarcation, secure to both parties vitally important connecting routes, and which will solve the minority problem, insofar as that is possible, and if not, will at least insure a tolerable life for the minority populations with secure guarantees of their rights.
The German Reich government is convinced that it is absolutely necessary to investigate the economic and physical damage inflicted since 1918, with full reparations to be made for that. Of course, it regards this obligation as binding on both sides.
On the basis of these considerations, we make the following concrete proposals:

1. The Free City of Danzig returns immediately to the German Reich on the basis of its purely German character and the unanimous desire of its population.

2. The territory of the so-called [Polish] Corridor will decide for itself whether it wishes to belong to Germany or to Poland. This territory consists of the area between the Baltic Sea [in the north] to a line marked [in the south] by the towns of Marienwerder, Graudenz, Kuhn and Bromberg -- including these towns -- and then westwards to Schoenlanke.

3. For this purpose a plebiscite will be conducted in this territory. All Germans who lived in this territory on January 1, 1918, or were born there on or before that date will be entitled to vote in the plebiscite. Similarly, all Poles, Kashubians, and so forth, who lived in this territory on or before that date, or were born there before that date, will also be entitled to vote. Germans who were expelled from this territory will return to vote in the plebiscite.
To insure an impartial plebiscite and to make sure that all necessary preliminary preparation work is properly carried out, this territory will come under the authority of an international commission, similar to the one organized in the Saar territory [for the 1935 plebiscite there]. This commission is to be organized immediately by the four great powers of Italy, the Soviet Union, France and Britain. This commission will have all sovereign authority in the territory. Accordingly, Polish military forces, Polish police and Polish authorities are to clear out of this territory as soon as possible, by a date to be agreed upon.

4. Not included in this territory is the Polish port of Gdynia, which is regarded as fundamentally sovereign Polish territory, to the extent of [ethnic] Polish settlement, but as a matter of principle is recognized as Polish territory. The specific border of this Polish port city will be negotiated by Germany and Poland and, if necessary, established by an international court of arbitration.

5. In order to insure ample time for the preparations necessary in order to conduct an impartial plebiscite, the plebiscite will not take place until after at least twelve months have elapsed.

6. In order to ensure unhindered traffic between Germany and East Prussia, and between Poland and the [Baltic] Sea, during this period [before the plebiscite], certain roads and rail lines may be designated to enable free transit. In that regard, only such fees may be imposed that are necessary for the maintenance of the transit routes or for transport itself.

7. A simple majority of the votes cast will decide whether the territory will go to Germany or to Poland.

8. After the plebiscite has been conducted, and regardless of the result, free transit will be guaranteed between Germany and its province of Danzig-East Prussia, as well as between Poland and the [Baltic] Sea. If the plebiscite determines that the territory belongs to Poland, Germany will obtain an extraterritorial transit zone, consisting of a motor super-highway [Reichsautobahn] and a four-track rail line, approximately along the line of Buetow-Danzig and Dirschau. The highway and the rail line will be built in such a way that the Polish transit lines are not disturbed, which means that they will pass either above or underneath. This zone will be one kilometer wide and will be sovereign German territory. In case the plebiscite is in Germany's favor, Poland will have free and unrestricted transit to its port of Gdynia with the same right to an extraterritorial road and rail line that Germany would have had.

9. If the Corridor returns to Germany, the German Reich declares that it is ready to carry out an exchange of population with Poland to the extent that this would be suitable for the [people of the] Corridor.

10. The special rights that may be claimed by Poland in the port of Danzig will be negotiated on the basis of parity for rights to Germany in the port of Gdynia.

11. In order to eliminate all fear of threat from either side, Danzig and Gdynia will be purely commercial centers, that is, with no military installations or military fortifications.

12. The peninsula of Hela, which will go to either Poland or Germany on the basis of the plebiscite, will also be demilitarized in any case.

13. The German Reich government has protested in the strongest terms against the Polish treatment of its minority populations. For its part, the Polish government also believes itself called upon to make protests against Germany. Accordingly, both sides agree to submit these complaints to an international investigation commission, which will be responsible for investigating all complaints of economic and physical damage as well as other acts of terror.
Germany and Poland pledge to compensate for all economic and other damages inflicted on minority populations on both sides since 1918, and/or to revoke all expropriations and provide for complete reparation for the victims of these and other economic measures.

14. In order to eliminate feelings of deprivation of international rights in the part of the Germans who will remain in Poland, as well as of the Poles who will remain in Germany, and above all, to insure that they are not forced to act contrary to their ethnic-national feelings, Germany and Poland agree to guarantee the rights of the minority populations on both sides through comprehensive and binding agreements. These will insure the right of these minority groups to maintain, freely develop and carry on their national-cultural life. In particular, they will be allowed to maintain organizations for these purposes. Both sides agree that members of their minority populations will not be drafted for military service.

15. If agreement is reached on the basis of these proposals, Germany and Poland declare that they will immediately order and carry out the demobilization of their armed forces.

16. Germany and Poland will agree to whatever additional measures may be necessary to implement the above points as quickly as possible.

[End of the text of the German proposal]

source: http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v08/v08p389_Hitler.html
(it's about halfway down the page more or less)

[Fahnenbohn]

Originally Posted by Oberon

The Kellogg-Briand pact of 1928 which was signed by Germany states that nations should not use war to solve "disputes or conflicts of whatever nature or of whatever origin they may be, which may arise among them."

Peace is not possible when injustice is not solved. War is the last argument when the opponent doesn't want to listen anything.

[Fahnenbohn]

I would like to recall some facts :

- On 24 October 1938, the German Foreign Minister, Joachim von Ribbentrop, explained to the Polish Ambassador Lipski the foundation for German-Polish agreement to solve the problem.



- On January 5, 1939, Hitler personally met the Polish Foreign Minister Josef Beck. Although being very clear on the fact that Danzig was German, would always remain German, and sooner or later return to Germany, the Führer showed himsef very consilient and insisted that he wanted to find a solution "that would take into account the respective interests of the two countries" (communication with east Prussia is as important for the Reich as communication with the sea for Poland). M. Beck remained very evasive.



- On January 16, the Polish Ambassador in New York informed Josef Beck that, according to a member of the American president's entourage, this one wanted France and England to "put an end to any political compromise with totalitarian states, and to not involve with them in any discussions with the aim of territorial modifications." He also gave an assurance that the US were "actively preparing for war - 1.25 billion dollars - and they were ready, in case of war, to intervene actively on the side of England and France." This letter would strengthen Poland's intransigence. (Le Livre Blanc Allemand, n°3, "Documents polonais relatifs à l'Histoire des origines de la guerre")

- On March 26, 1939 : the Polish ambassador in Berlin had clearly answered to Ribbentrop : "Any continuation of this German projects, particularly with regard the return of Danzig to the Reich would mean war with Poland."

- On April 28, 1939, Hitler left the door open for discussion by declaring : "If the Polish Government desires to reach a settlement of new contractual relations with Germany, I would answer this desire, provided however that such a regulation is then based on an absolutely clear obligation and urging the two sides to the same extent. Germany is in any case very willing to assume such commitments and then to fulfill them. "

- The invasion of Poland was scheduled on August 26. But the day before, Britain and Poland formally signed an unconditional mutual assistance pact (military assistance in case of aggression). Then, Hitler ordered Marshal Keitel to stop immediately all military preparations because he needed time to negotiate.- The Führer then summoned the British ambassador in Berlin. After telling him that the German-Polish problem had to be resolved and that it would be, he charged him to convey to his Government, his willingness to reach a treaty of friendship with England. The response from England came only on August 28th late evening. The English government posed as a precondition for any agreement the peaceful resolution of the German-Polish dispute. Hitler replied the next day in the late afternoon. Although skeptical, he accepted the principle of direct conversation with Poland. After repeating that he doesn't want to prejudice the vital interests of this country, nor to question the existence of an independent Polish state, he demanded the coming of a Polish plenipotentiary for the next day on August 30, stressing that Germany should submit proposals for a solution acceptable to him. See HunterICX's post with the 16 points.

In his memories, the translator who assisted Hitler in his conversations with strangers wrote :

"By reading [the 16 proposals], I didn’t believe my eyes [...]. Such proposals were inspired by a spirit that had little common with the National Socialist methods and ideas from Hitler during countless previous interviews. This was really a project which bore the mark of the League of the Nations." (Paul Schmidt, Sur la scène internationale. Ma figuration après de Hitler. 1933-1945 (éd. Plon, 1950), pp. 217-8.)

- The day of 30 August passed without a Polish plenipotentiary came. Anxious however to leave one last chance to his neighbor, Hitler delays again the attack on Poland (24 additional hours).

Is this the attitude of a man who is wanting a war ?

- On August 30, around midnight, J. von Ribbentrop received the British ambassador. This one informed him that "The British Government was not able to recommend to the Polish Government to accept this procedure". So, it was clear that Britain would not safeguard peace.

--> Until the end, Hitler was in favor of direct negotiations between powers, including Poland ! But the polish plenipotentiary never came ...

- On September 1, the German armies penetrated in Poland. However, world peace was not dead. A simple local conflict had begun, as there had been so many in 50 years, and nothing required it to escalate into global conflict.

*

[Raptor1]

The August 29th proposal couldn't have been a genuine attempt to secure peace. It was presented to the British, rather than the Polish, and was supposed to have somehow made its way from Germany to Britain to Poland and brought back a Polish negotiator within a very limited time frame, making it more of an ultimatum than an actual attempt to negotiate. It was presented much too late to stop the invasion in any case. The secret protocol of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact had practically completely sealed Poland's fate, and the German army received its orders for the invasion over a week beforehand. The invasion was supposed to have started on August 26th before being delayed by the signing of the Polish-British defense treaty, since Hitler wanted more time to attempt to ward off French and British involvement in the conflict. Some units of the German army had actually started moving towards their objectives on the 25th before they were recalled (in fact, some of them weren't).

EDIT:

Originally Posted by Fahnenbohn

In his memories, the translator who assisted Hitler in his conversations with strangers wrote :

"By reading [the 16 proposals], I didn’t believe my eyes [...]. Such proposals were inspired by a spirit that had little common with the National Socialist methods and ideas from Hitler during countless previous interviews. This was really a project which bore the mark of the League of the Nations." (Paul Schmidt, Sur la scène internationale. Ma figuration après de Hitler. 1933-1945 (éd. Plon, 1950), pp. 217-8.)

That's a curious way to put it since Germany had withdrawn from the League of Nations years beforehand. In any case, he's right, it does have little in common with Hitler's ideas because it wasn't supposed to have been accepted.

Originally Posted by Fahnenbohn

- The day of 30 August passed without a Polish plenipotentiary came. Anxious however to leave one last chance to his neighbor, Hitler delays again the attack on Poland (24 additional hours).

Is this the attitude of a man who is wanting a war ?

- On August 30, around midnight, J. von Ribbentrop received the British ambassador. This one informed him that "The British Government was not able to recommend to the Polish Government to accept this procedure". So, it was clear that Britain would not safeguard peace.

--> Until the end, Hitler was in favor of direct negotiations between powers, including Poland ! But the polish plenipotentiary never came ...

- On September 1, the German armies penetrated in Poland. However, world peace was not dead. A simple local conflict had begun, as there had been so many in 50 years, and nothing required it to escalate into global conflict.

*

This is exactly the attitude of a man who wants to legitimize his war. If he had wanted peace, he'd not have signed an agreement with the Soviet Union to divide Poland or given the order to launch the invasion ahead of time and used actual diplomacy rather than hasty ultimatums to achieve his goals. As for it being a 'simple local conflict', I'm sure the Polish would have seen themselves as a worthy sacrifice in the name of global peace.

[Fahnenbohn]

Originally Posted by Raptor1

It was presented to the British, rather than the Polish

Poland didn't want to hear anything. And Britain did nothing to calm the situation.

Originally Posted by Raptor1

It was presented much too late to stop the invasion in any case.

Because the signing of the Polish-British defense treaty was a total surprise. Britain knew that Hitler was determined to solve the corridor problem, one way or another. A conflict between Poland and Germany should NOT have requiered war between Germany and Britain/France.

Originally Posted by Raptor1

The secret protocol of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact had practically completely sealed Poland's fate.

Yes, in case of invasion only. So if Germany and USSR invaded Poland, this is the fault of Britain/Poland/USA who didn't want to leave the possibility for Germany to solve this scandalous fact of her country cut in 2 parts, without communication. --> So we can say that Britain/USA wanted the war against the Third Reich. Poland was an excuse, and She was the victim of her own pride.

About France this is a little more complexe ...

*

[August]

Originally Posted by Oberon

Finally, let's end with a speech that Hitler gave his generals back in May 1939:

Game, set and match I believe.