How long does Putin have left in office?

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Catfish

B.t.w. did you know Ukraine did not exist as a country, before the german Wehrmacht and High command decided to make it so?

Not quite, Ukraine had existed before then. It officially declared independence from Russia on the 25th January 1918, as the Ukrainian People's Republic.

[ikalugin]

Not quite, Ukraine had existed before then. It officially declared independence from Russia on the 25th January 1918, as the Ukrainian People's Republic.

I guess you treat all other "states" created by the breakdown of the Russian Empire and the Civil War the same way? How about Far Eastern Republic?

Now, I understand Polish claim for their statehood (which is real), but making Ukrainian People's Republic into something more than what it was is a bad idea I think. As next we would be talking about how Ukrainian Cossacks invented submarines by glueing their boats together or about how proto-Ukrainians dug out the Black Sea.

[Bilge_Rat]

Originally Posted by Catfish

Yes. Do you really think Russia would have invaded Poland by now, had Poland not joined NATO? Really??

I did not say that, but there is no reason to think the Russia would be acting differently in Ukraine if NATO had not expanded eastward.

Umm, yes. So it not too far-minded to see it belongs more to Russia,than to its western neighbours. If they WANT to join the west, ok. Does the majority want it? Really? Or is it western media hype?

there are many polls floating around to gauge public opinion, i.e.:

Among Ukrainians living outside Donbas and Crimea, majorities support receiving economic aid from Western countries (71%), joining the EU (67%) and increasing sanctions on Russia (65%). More than half also want to receive military assistance (54%) and join NATO (53%), though support for these measures is more tepid and regionally divided. Ukrainians in the west are much more supportive than those in the east of becoming a member of NATO (68% in west vs. 34% in east) and receiving military aid (66% support in west vs. 38% in east). Neither western nor eastern Ukrainians, however, want to join the Eurasian Economic Union with Russia (82% and 61% oppose, respectively).

http://www.pewglobal.org/2015/06/10/...-military-aid/

Ukraine does not "belong" to Russia any more than Poland, Finland, Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, Belarus, Moldavia, Kazkahstan, Georgia, Azerbaijan, Armenia, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikastan, etc., all of which used to be part of Russia or the USSR at one time.

History moves on.

[ikalugin]

I did already mentioned that Ukrainians were lied to? Essentially they were promissed (by the "pro russian" elites, "pro russian" my ass) that by joining EU and NATO they would receive western european standards of living from the get go.

Same thing happned back in the 1991, when they were promissed that by separating from the USSR and RSFSR they would become the eastern France or southern Canada.
And as we know even Belarussia did better economically:

In fact, due to the decrease in population post 1991, Ukrainian GDP (not per capita) did not recover from the break up of the USSR:
http://www.ukrstat.gov.ua/operativ/o...07/page_02.htm
Reaching smashing 74 percent of 1990s levels just before the crisis hit.

As to if anything belongs to anyone - this could be argued about any state, I have provided the examples above. In my opinion it was a Soviet mistake to increase rights of the regions and regional elites, the same mistake Russia did after the break up.