Gun Control thread (merged many)

[Aktungbby]

Originally Posted by August

I wonder how much of that average is gang related?

HEY! "GANG LIVES MATTER" HOMEY!

[Jeff-Groves]

Says the Guy with a Blue Beret.

[Lionclaw]

Perhaps someone should ask the media the following: How does it feel to be the official speaker for the looneys who are doing the shootings?

The media are giving them the "Fifteen minutes of fame" the looneys want. Perhaps it's the media that need to be changed.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Rockstar

"According to a careful analysis of data on mass shootings (using the widely accepted definition of at least four killed), the Congressional Research Service found that there are, on average, just over 20 incidents annually. More important, the increase in cases, if there was one at all, is negligible. Indeed, the only genuine increase is in hype and hysteria."

Still waiting on those photos of your new refugee roommates.

I never said mass murder, I said mass shooting, I guess if there's one good thing to come out of the frequency in which Americans shoot each other it's that you've become very good at treating bullet wounds. The FBI definition of mass murder is at least four killed, this is true, therefore a mass shooting should involved four or more shot without a cooling off period in between. As such, Aktungbby has shown the page with the details.
How many of these are gang related? Probably more than a few, but equally there are those that are not.
I'm not sure I can understand the mentality of a supposedly advanced western nation shrugging off these incidents with a 'these kind of things happen' attitude...because it's the only country in the western world where these kind of things happen every month, if not every week.

I tried to be polite about it, I didn't even suggest banning guns or harsh regulation, I just suggested that they need looking at as well as mental health care and media response. For this I get the usual defensive attitude, the old hackles come up and the usual 'Europeans don't understand' attitude kicks off.
I guess Wim was right, I was wasting my time here.

[Torplexed]

Well, I've never owned a gun not do I plan to. It's not out of disdain for guns, I just figure I'm doing society a favor as I am one of those inept clods for whom nothing is ever where I think I left it. With me the gun would probably be misplaced, lost and out on the streets causing mischief I never intended. Either that or I'd shoot my eye out or lose a foot without even pulling the trigger.

The debate as I see it from a mostly neutral point of view, is that it is less about controls (though I think some controls might be a wise move), it's the rhetoric around guns and the cultural place of guns in America.

Guns have always had a major role in American culture, but in recent decades the fight for gun rights versus gun control, has over-emphasized that role. Guns are now up there with Jesus. They're not just a right, for some they have become an essential expression of patriotism and nationhood, both sanctified, and fetishised. Hollywood certainly plays its part, but the NRA have done a great deal to imbue guns with far greater significance at an identity level, than they should ever have. The NRA could be a big help by taking the position that the laws would help the law biding gun owners by keeping the weapons out of the hands of baddies. But they've staunchly maintained a "fer us or agin us" position, because that makes them the most high profile leader of the fight for the common man against the big bad government/eastern eggheads, which makes the money flow into their coffers.


Our politicians give the same answers because the debate hasn't changed in all these years. As always, it's the politicians who blame the guns, versus politicians who blame everything but the guns. We agree it's a terrible thing, we all send our thoughts and prayers, and we all salute the ordinary people who step up and who become heroes. But I'm ashamed to admit that when I first saw the news bulletin, I didn't have the sense of shock I used to have.

Anyway, gotta go. If I could just find where I lost my car keys...

Originally Posted by Oberon

I'm not sure I can understand the mentality of a supposedly advanced western nation shrugging off these incidents with a 'these kind of things happen' attitude...because it's the only country in the western world where these kind of things happen every month, if not every week.

I tried to be polite about it, I didn't even suggest banning guns or harsh regulation, I just suggested that they need looking at as well as mental health care and media response. For this I get the usual defensive attitude, the old hackles come up and the usual 'Europeans don't understand' attitude kicks off.
I guess Wim was right, I was wasting my time here.

My exact observation as well.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Torplexed

The debate as I see it from a mostly neutral point of view, is that it is less about controls (though I think some controls might be a wise move), it's the rhetoric around guns and the cultural place of guns in America.

Guns have always had a major role in American culture, but in recent decades the fight for gun rights versus gun control, has over-emphasized that role. Guns are now up there with Jesus. They're not just a right, for some they have become an essential expression of patriotism and nationhood, both sanctified, and fetishised. Hollywood certainly plays its part, but the NRA have done a great deal to imbue guns with far greater significance at an identity level, than they should ever have. The NRA could be a big help by taking the position that the laws would help the law biding gun owners by keeping the weapons out of the hands of baddies. But they've staunchly maintained a "fer us or agin us" position, because that makes them the most high profile leader of the fight for the common man against the big bad government/eastern eggheads, which makes the money flow into their coffers.


Our politicians give the same answers because the debate hasn't changed in all these years. As always, it's the politicians who blame the guns, versus politicians who blame everything but the guns. We agree it's a terrible thing, we all send our thoughts and prayers, and we all salute the ordinary people who step up and who become heroes. But I'm ashamed to admit that when I first saw the news bulletin, I didn't have the sense of shock I used to have.

Anyway, gotta go. If I could just find where I lost my car keys...

Very well put, Torplexed. The whole deadlock in the situation has become...well, it would be farcical if it wasn't so tragic. I don't know what has caused guns to be, as you put it, 'up there with Jesus', perhaps it's the shock and fear that rippled through the western world after 9/11, or the internet bringing together all the people who are convinced that the government is two steps away from turning into Joseph Stalins Russia, or perhaps it's a form of defence, after the increase of mass shootings in the last decade and a half, or at the very least what seems to be the increase now that they are attracting global attention.
It's definitely a sore spot, this thread serves as witness to that...I can understand this, there are plenty of sore spots in Europe, the inability of the EU to find its arse with both hands is one, and I can sympathise with those who feel that a recreational activity that they enjoy is under threat because of idiots. That is fair enough. But there does come a time, surely, when you have to look at the pros and cons of a situation, and act.
Take cares for example, thousands of people die in car accidents every year, but car companies continue to try and make car crashes more survivable. You only have to compare the design and construction of a modern car to that of an old Ford from the 1930s (although one could argue that the Ford is probably cleaner than a new Volkswagen... ), seat-belts are another thing, it's law in the UK that you must wear them, a good number of US states have it as a primary enforcement, meaning that you can be stopped and ticketed if you're seen not wearing one while driving. Air bags are becoming mandatory in modern cars, some old cars have to undergo strict checks before they're deemed to be road-worthy.
Aircraft, many people die in aircraft crashes, so they've done all they can to improve the design of aircraft to stop them from crashing, they've developed Air Traffic Control to stop them from flying into each other, and fitted radar to stop them flying into mountains.
The average firearm, say a Glock, would be recognisable and usable by a gentleman from 1914. There are third party safety measure that can be brought, gun safes (fantastic designs there), gun locks, and so forth but there is no demand by law that a person owning a firearm should own any manner of these, that I am aware of anyway, please correct me if I am wrong. I believe that in most states, a criminal background check and being over the age of 21, as well as perhaps watching a video and doing a test is what you need to apply for a firearm, sometimes you need to wait three days to receive it.
Now...again...correct me if I'm wrong but that makes it easier to get a firearm than it is to get a driving license.
Doesn't that strike anyone as being a little off? I mean, I accept that a car is a deadly weapon in the right hands, but so is a firearm...so surely a firearm should take the same amount of effort to get as a driving licence?
Surely the same sort of safety measures that are put into a car that makes it safer than a car of the 1930s should be put into firearms?

I think it would be a folly to take away American firearms, not to mention most likely suicide, and people complain that making it harder to get firearms will just affect those who are following the law. But surely, if it does happen to help reduce the number of school and college shootings by even a tiny amount, then it's a sacrifice that's worth making? Surely jumping through a few more loops is worth it if it stops the next generation of America from being cut down by their own countrymen?

I just struggle to understand the unwillingness to act, I mean the US invaded a country because 3,000 people were killed by some Middle Eastern terrorists. 29,000 people die from firearms (and yes, that's suicide, accident and homicide statistics) in the same year and people shrug and say 'These things happen'.

I don't understand...and truth be told, given the situation, I'm not exactly a hundred percent sure that I want to.

[Oberon]

[em2nought]

I'd be willing to settle for prior military service being a requirement to own firearms. Keep the guns out of mostly lefty, democrat, thug, immigrant, and wack-a-doodle hands that way.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by em2nought

I'd be willing to settle for prior military service being a requirement to own firearms. Keep the guns out of mostly lefty, democrat, thug, immigrant, and wack-a-doodle hands that way.

I wouldn't have called this latest guy, a self-confessed Republican, a lefty, nor would I called Dylan Roof, Mr Apartheid South Africa, a democrat, and Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold were born in Wichita and Lakewood respectively so they weren't immigrants, but they were definitely all wack-a-doodle...but then again, so was Wade Michael Page, Christopher Dorner, and John Allen Muhammad and they were all ex-military.

It's an idea though, it might cut back on the school/college shootings at least, providing these ex-military types make sure their kids don't get know how to get hold of their firearm.

[Rockstar]

Originally Posted by Oberon

I never said mass murder, I said mass shooting, I guess if there's one good thing to come out of the frequency in which Americans shoot each other it's that you've become very good at treating bullet wounds. The FBI definition of mass murder is at least four killed, this is true, therefore a mass shooting should involved four or more shot without a cooling off period in between. As such, Aktungbby has shown the page with the details.
How many of these are gang related? Probably more than a few, but equally there are those that are not.
I'm not sure I can understand the mentality of a supposedly advanced western nation shrugging off these incidents with a 'these kind of things happen' attitude...because it's the only country in the western world where these kind of things happen every month, if not every week.

I tried to be polite about it, I didn't even suggest banning guns or harsh regulation, I just suggested that they need looking at as well as mental health care and media response. For this I get the usual defensive attitude, the old hackles come up and the usual 'Europeans don't understand' attitude kicks off.
I guess Wim was right, I was wasting my time here.

Its the broken record of the reactionary sanctimonious crusaders. We get it , we've heard you OK? Furthermore this murder doesn't have jack squat to do with Europeans or you.

It has everything to with me a responsible gun owner who like Betenov doesnt really think about those shootin irons collecting dust in my closest until the media talking heads and crusaders come out of the woodwork with all the great ideas of what 'we' should do, again. I agree with my fellow cheesehead, better back ground checks are an acceptable idea. I have even gone so far to email the White House once with the idea of doing something similar to a TWIC card.

And stop the pity party lamenting how people just dont care. I abhorr murder no matter what tool is used to commit such a henious act. As I said before people murdering others has been going on long before the invention of gun powder. You can build all the mental institutions and jails you want, you can make firearms hard to get, you can change the laws. But you cant change human nature, sick individuals will find a way to murder another every time.

This murderer found his will through social media other like minded sick people supported. I say we better fund the NSA, change the laws to make it easiers for them and police and ICE to scan for online threats. Who knows, we might have found a red flag and kept him and his family from immigrating into the U.S. preventing this from happening in the first place.

Firearms have been around alot longer than these punks have. That gun didnt change, they did. I say no social media, cartoons and video games glorifying war, death, sex and murder allowed until one reaches the age of consent.

[Oberon]

Aw bless, did I hit a sore spot?

Originally Posted by Rockstar

Its the broken record of the reactionary sanctimonious crusaders. We get it , we've heard you OK? Furthermore this murder doesn't have jack squat to do with Europeans or you.

Ah, the American last defence. Beautiful, look at its rage and roar, and ultimately on an international forum...mean sod all.

It has everything to with me a responsible gun owner who like Betenov doesnt really think about those shootin irons collecting dust in my closest until the media talking heads and crusaders come out of the woodwork with all the great ideas of what 'we' should do, again. I agree with my fellow cheesehead, better back ground checks are an acceptable idea. I have even gone so far to email the White House once with the idea of doing something similar to a TWIC card.

And yet Betonov is a European (who this has nothing to do with) who lives in a nation with gun control laws. Strange that.
Yes, better background checks are a good idea, and better mental health care too, and funnily enough better background checks would come under the three points that I put forward that would need examining back in post #1344 before you jumped down my throat and started having a go. Is it too easy for people with mental health issues to have access to a firearm? That's the question, and if I'm asking it I know Americans are, and what is the answer?

And stop the pity party lamenting how people just dont care.

Jeb Bush - 'Stuff happens'



If people cared, they might actually do something to stop it.

I abhorr murder no matter what tool is used to commit such a henious act. As I said before people murdering others has been going on long before the invention of gun powder.

Yes, that's why we invented the police. To try to stop people doing these henious acts...that's why you can't take cutlery onto a plane any more, or why a German pilot was able to lock himself inside a cockpit and nose dive into a mountain, why you have to pass a test before you can drive a car, or be trained before you drive a locomotive or fly an aircraft.
The point is not to shrug your shoulders and say "Eh, it's murder, what you going to do." but to try and stop murder, and if you can't stop the mentality, you can at least help with the tools.

You can build all the mental institutions and jails you want, you can make firearms hard to get, you can change the laws. But you cant change human nature, sick individuals will find a way to murder another every time.

Yes, but the point is to try and stop so many being killed at one point and so frequently. How many people can an untrained man with a knife kill before being taken down? Compare this to how many an untrained man with a gun can. Take a look at the Franklin Regional High School incident when Alex Hribal went amok with a knife and injured 21 people. The key factor there is injured, not killed. Yes, I'll admit there have been school shooting incidents where people have not died, but they tend to be the exception rather than the norm.
In short, it is a lot easier and quicker to shoot a person than it is to stab them, to stab someone you need to put force behind the blade as well as be close in to connect. To shoot you put enough force to pull the trigger and you can stand away from the subject that you're shooting at. Try doing a drive by with a knife, or even a crossbow.
There are not many ways of murder in this world that are as easy as pointing a gun at someone and pulling the trigger.

This murderer found his will through social media other like minded sick people supported. I say we better fund the NSA, change the laws to make it easiers for them and police and ICE to scan for online threats.

So a PATRIOT act for internal America? I can foresee that being popular.

Who knows, we might have found a red flag and kept him and his family from immigrating into the U.S. preventing this from happening in the first place.

Possible, but what about the home grown nutjobs?

Firearms have been around alot longer than these punks have. That gun didnt change, they did. I say no social media, cartoons and video games glorifying war, death, sex and murder allowed until one reaches the age of consent.

The Jack Thompson approach. I guess that is one approach, but you're not supposed to drink alcohol, take drugs or have sex until the age of consent either and how many people follow those laws? How do you police such a thing in an era when everyone has a smart phone and the social media is built in.

[Platapus]

Originally Posted by em2nought

I'd be willing to settle for prior military service being a requirement to own firearms. Keep the guns out of mostly lefty, democrat, thug, immigrant, and wack-a-doodle hands that way.

I guess you don't think that there are any democrats or any sort of liberal leaning people serving in the military? And them immigrants? Nope, none of them sorts in the military. Nope.

I think you would be surprised at the number of independents and democrats serving in the military.

[Betonov]

The only people on this forum that are able to correctly type my name are those that use the actuall real one

And yes, I am a European in a country with strict gun control laws that in my opinion is that should be as they are and 90% of my countrymen don't give a rats behind about it. Remember my novel about guns in Slovenia. Reffer to it. It's a non issue.

And as I said. Keep your guns. I don't care. Just try not to compare Europe to the medieval times becasue we don't have them (and my posts in photo thread show what a desolate wasteland I live in without acces to weapons) and try, please try to see beyond the political and media BS and focus on real issues like economy and education.

Crying: ''they be stealing our rightfull guns'' means you're not focusing on the astronomical debt and the fact your children can't point the US on the map, let alone some exotic land like India. You're being played.

And get your ass to Mars

[Buddahaid]

Originally Posted by Oberon

.....The Jack Thompson approach. I guess that is one approach, but you're not supposed to drink alcohol, take drugs or have sex until the age of consent either and how many people follow those laws? How do you police such a thing in an era when everyone has a smart phone and the social media is built in.

That is pretty much what I referred to earlier about determined people that was so well received and taken as apathy. Seems you have made my point for me.