Glad to see majority of Israeli voters...

[CCIP]

I certainly doubt anyone in Israel misses Saddam - for the part of my family that lives there, one of their scariest memories had always been the Scud strikes during the Gulf War, partly because one hit close to home, partly because at the time they were widely rumoured to be loaded with chemical or biological weapons.

That said, I think as awful as they were, the Baathist (and other secular conservative) regimes were perhaps not the greatest target for the West in the Middle East, and I think the support for their destruction was short-sighted and certainly hasn't done Israel a lot of favours. It's let a lot of devils out of the box, and Iran has reaped the most benefits.

And, as I keep saying, I don't believe there is a military solution to the Iran problem. That's a stupid idea. Nor do I believe Iran is so stupid as to be looking for a military solution to Israel. Iran's biggest priority is expanding their sphere of influence, and having as much access to the world market as they can while they're at it. Does that mean they need to be appeased? Of course not. But I think the question here is far from as simple as "to Israel or not to Israel". And I think the far more pressing question for the West in particular is what to do about the power vacuum left in the wake of the Arab Spring, which is gradually getting filled up by all the wrong people. Aiming to create another power vacuum in Iran would neither be practical nor solve it (and arguably would make things a lot worse).

As for the assessment of the results of the Iraq war for the Americans, I'd suggest considering that the only winners of that conflict were Iran, and to a lesser extent Russia and China. Great cause for tens of thousands of lost American lives, no doubt.

[Oberon]

Iran doesn't need to consider a military solution for Israel, because Israels current course is self-destructive. Netanyahus re-election was a gift to Hamas and there'll certainly be more Israeli action in the Gaza Strip and West Bank this year, if we make it to summer without it then it will be surprising.

[Rockstar]

Originally Posted by Oberon

Iran doesn't need to consider a military solution for Israel, because Israels current course is self-destructive. Netanyahus re-election was a gift to Hamas and there'll certainly be more Israeli action in the Gaza Strip and West Bank this year, if we make it to summer without it then it will be surprising.

I don't get it, how do you figure the election of Likud Party and Netanyahu are a gift to Hamas?

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Rockstar

I don't get it, how do you figure the election of Likud Party and Netanyahu are a gift to Hamas?

It's not so much the Likud party, it's the people that Netanyahu is going to have to form a coalition with, as well as his rhetoric before the election.
Then there's idiots like the Deputy speaker of the Knesset .

[August]

I don't get how you think Israel's current course is "self destructive". In your opinion there is a less self destructive path that they can follow?

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by August

I don't get how you think Israel's current course is "self destructive". In your opinion there is a less self destructive path that they can follow?

The thing is, it's Catch-22, I can't see a particularly less self-destructive path, but if I did I would be the first to try and point it out.
As it stands though, the likes of Hamas hold all the cards, miltiarily it may not seem like it, they're incapable of hitting anything in Israel because of Iron Dome and Israel can take out anything it wants to in return.
Perhaps fifty years ago this sort of tactic would work, but the world is a smaller place now and media circulates a lot faster and freer. So, here's how it goes:

1) Hamas shoots off a rocket at Israel, Iron Dome nails it.
2) Repeat the above for an unknown amount of time and then Israel drops a Hellfire in a house somewhere in the Gaza strip.
3) Instantly the pictures of that air strikes are beamed around the world, pictures of wounded teenagers, etc. You know the routine.
4) Meanwhile the only damage in Israel is a few tiles from shrapnel.
5) The world sees the imbalance in damage and sides with the 'poor Palestinians'
6) Israels international support is reduced.

Now, obviously that's a great simplification of the situation, however when you get pictures like this:



And compare it to pictures like this:



You start getting a problem, a problem in that no matter what Israel does in regards to military action in Palestine, it will in the long term lose by isolating itself in global opinion.
It's unsustainable.

I couldn't honestly say what the answer is, since both sides consider their position to be that of strength and thus there is little need for negotiation. Netanyahu is hoping for a Republican US, and Hamas is hoping for more Israeli bombing which equals more Hamas members and international support for Palestine.

Can there be a negotiated settlement? Possibly, we managed what many considered to be impossible in Ireland, I recall many people saying that there would 'never be peace in Ireland', and whilst there is still occasional bouts of trouble in Ireland it's nothing compared to how it was. So, perhaps there is hope, but as it is, something is going to give at some point in the next a hundred years. Especially if more power vacuums get created in the Middle East.

[mapuc]

Have one thing in mind. be very careful to what kind of picture you believe in

Last time there was a clash between Israel and Hamas some of our news channel and news program showed picture from Gaza

later they had to apalogize for having showed picture from the Syrian civil war.

It's hard to see the different, if you don't know it. I didn't, I truly believed that those picture was from Gaza.

Sorry for this off topic detour

Markus

[Oberon]

It's not off-topic at all mapuc, for all I know that picture that I did a quick google image search to get could well be from the Syrian civil war. It's hard to be sure what angle people are playing when you find a news item in regards to Israel. I tend to lean towards the people and organisations that are called pro-Palestinian by Israel and pro-Israel by Palestine, if both sides hate it/them then it/they must be doing something right.

Palestine is now looking likely to take its case to the UN, and it will be another arrow in its propaganda quiver.

[Rockstar]

"Idiot like this"

.

Ok, I read the article and looked at what this fellow you called an idiot was quoted as saying.

‘the conquest of the entire Gaza Strip, and annihilation of all fighting forces and their supporters’.. I can agree with that. Makes me an idiot too I guess.

which includes shipping its residents across the world.

Hey works for me just don't ship'em here!

'defining the enemy' and states: 'The strategic enemy is extremist Arab Islam in all its varieties, from Iran to Gaza, which seeks to annihilate Israel in its entirety. The immediate enemy is Hamas. (Not the tunnels, not the rockets, but Hamas.)'.

What is so idiotic about what he was quoted as saying? Granted shipping people across the globe is a little far fetched but I think most liklely simply illustrates Israels frustration.

I know lets negotiate! But then we run into this little problem of the Hamas Covenant.

this is an excerpt from Articles 13 and 11 of the Hamas Covenant.

Rejection of a Negotiated Peace

'[Peace] initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and
international conferences are in contradiction to the principles of
the Islamic Resistance Movement... Those conferences are no more than
a means to appoint the infidels as arbitrators in the lands of
Islam... There is no solution for the Palestinian problem except by
Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are but a
waste of time, an exercise in futility.'

On the Destruction of Israel

'Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will
obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.' (Preamble)

'The land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf [Holy Possession]
consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgment Day. No one
can renounce it or any part, or abandon it or any part of it.'

(Article 11)

'Palestine is an Islamic land... Since this is the case, the
Liberation of Palestine is an individual duty for every Moslem
wherever he may be.'

Hmmm just noticed something Hamas thinks the land belongs to Islam and not the so called Palestinians. I must admit, in that regard they are smarter than most people because it is my understanding as well that Palestine is a geographical location on a map not a nation or people.

Ok so now after reading the Covenant. Where is that the one who will do everything in power to combat intolerance? Because according to the Hamas Charter they seem pretty intolerant to me. So go get'em tiger.

Oh ya if what Moshe Feiglin said makes him an idiot. Whats your plan? A two state solution so Hamas can move their rockets closer?

[Oberon]

Perhaps I just find it a little...odd or amusing, that a country populated by the descendants or survivors of a nations attempt to subdue and rid itself of a set religion, is talking about subduing or ridding itself of a set religion.
I mean who decides what a supporter of Hamas is?

I admit, if you'd have read the post, that neither side will be willing to negotiate because both sides see themselves in positions of strength.

However Israels current strategy serves only to undermine them in the global political theatre.

[August]

Originally Posted by Oberon

The thing is, it's Catch-22, I can't see a particularly less self-destructive path, but if I did I would be the first to try and point it out.

It's just the way you put it you made it sound (at least to me) like you think Israel is on that path by choice.

I understand what you are saying about damaging images but there always remains the question of what else can Israel do? If they stop fighting back it may lessen western tongue clucking but the rockets aren't going to stop nor will the suicide bombers and other attacks cease.

The reality is that Israel, unlike Northern Ireland is surrounded by enemies who will never be satisfied until they are destroyed and every last Jew either driven into the sea or enslaved. That's the bottom line here. Who the Israelis elect is immaterial as is western disapproval.

If the west really wants to help Israel we should come up with a real workable alternative to the situation rather than unrealistic schemes and Monday morning quarterbacking.

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by Oberon

You start getting a problem, a problem in that no matter what Israel does in regards to military action in Palestine, it will in the long term lose by isolating itself in global opinion.
It's unsustainable.

I couldn't honestly say what the answer is, since both sides consider their position to be that of strength and thus there is little need for negotiation. Netanyahu is hoping for a Republican US, and Hamas is hoping for more Israeli bombing which equals more Hamas members and international support for Palestine.

Can there be a negotiated settlement? Possibly, we managed what many considered to be impossible in Ireland, I recall many people saying that there would 'never be peace in Ireland', and whilst there is still occasional bouts of trouble in Ireland it's nothing compared to how it was. So, perhaps there is hope, but as it is, something is going to give at some point in the next a hundred years. Especially if more power vacuums get created in the Middle East.

I think so too, long term, Israel is digging itself into a pretty deep hole. If the Palestinians ever get smart and start using the Ghandi/MLK/South Africa playbook, Israel will have to come to terms with a Palestinian state. Netanyahu and Likud are not only delaying the inevitable, they are making it difficult for Israel to accept it.

[Rockstar]

I just do not see that both sides are the problem. One is hell bent on the destruction of the others entire population. Plainly stating peace negotiations are a complete waste of time, futile and breeds intolerence from birth. Hamas doesnt even claim to fight for the Palestinian people, if there were such a thing, they are fighting a Jihad against a neighboring state and lands to make it Islamic.

A spokesman from the otherside as noted in the above article states they need to go after the threat, NOT the entire population. And he gets labeled the idiot?

Now, as far as who decides who Hamas supporters are. Thats should be pretty easy, they're the ones firing the rockets, digging tunnels, and shooting rifles at me. As a few here always love proclaim all the time not all muslims are extremists. It stands to reason then some in the Gaza would love to see Israel rid them of these sorry arse excuses for human beings who call themselves Hamas.

[mapuc]

Ever thought of this

98-99 percent of the people on both side have no problems living side by

It's the other 1-2 percent on each side that through manipulation a.s.o makes them hate each other.

Markus

[MH]

I understand what you are saying about damaging images but there always remains the question of what else can Israel do? If they stop fighting back it may lessen western tongue clucking but the rockets aren't going to stop nor will the suicide bombers and other attacks cease.

Well then...
The problem is that it is all about images and who ever bring the most emissive ones wins....
So what does it say about the public opinion in general and whom it does bring the motivation to keep coming with them?
Who gains most from destructive path?

What you are saying Oberon is that Bibi is no good for Israel because public opinion in the west is stupid?

It's not so much the Likud party, it's the people that Netanyahu is going to have to form a coalition with, as well as his rhetoric before the election.
Then there's idiots like the Deputy speaker of the Knesset

Yes he is a loon idiot , cant stand him.