Here we go again

[Oberon]

Stepping outside of the whole racial issue for a moment, there does certainly seem to be a tread of police reaching for their firearms and using them in a situation that does not call for it. We quite possibly have a similar situation in the UK but with tasers, and our old justice secretary who pushed for their introduction is now calling for a review into their use.
Now obviously there are going to be accidental shootings, but the attitude of the police seems to be regarding the public as less of an entity to be protected and more an entity to be combatted.
This is not a good way to go.

Now, coming back to the story at hand...well, first off, these are university students, I don't think anyone would be surprised that they are protesting. That's what they do. That's usually the point in peoples lives when they become politicised, and they will rebel against anything, especially if it seems to be authoritarian, and you don't get a bigger representation of authority than the police...except perhaps the IRS.
Honestly, uni students protesting against the police is no surprise at all.

I couldn't honestly comment on the whole white/black privelege situation in the US since the only stories that come out of the US are so hideously skewed one way or the other that it's impossible to be certain about anything regarding race. Clearly there are those who will always be convinced that there is a problem, who have built their careers on there being a problem, and there are those who are vehemently opposed to there being a problem even if there is one that they are willing to label their opposition in all forms of fanciful names.
However, there is a problem somewhere in the system, although it's hard to tell whether it's a social, economic or political one, but clearly there is a growing trend of people who feel that there is a disconnect between them and the country they live in. Whether this is a problem of their own making, or whether this is a situation they have found themselves in, well that depends on who you ask. And it's not just an American thing, it's a western world thing, and I think that with the coming of the internet people are joining together in a way they could not before to protest about it. Just as people are coming together in conspiracy theories about 9/11, and about how the US government is going to take everyones guns away, so people are coming together to complain about injustices in the system of the nation they live in, or what they perceive to be so.

In short, this is a thing and it will continue until people work together to stop making it a thing.

[GoldenRivet]

Originally Posted by Oberon

Stepping outside of the whole racial issue for a moment, there does certainly seem to be a tread of police reaching for their firearms and using them in a situation that does not call for it.

First, i'd like to point out that the young man was not shot, though i understand you are probably not implying that

Second, is there really a trend indicating the rise of police shootings?

When i wanted to buy a Jeep Wrangler, i never used to see them on the road. The day after i bought one, i was waving left and right at dozens of other Jeep Wrangler drivers on every outing i went on.

I would venture to guess that while the percentage of police shootings has probably remained roughly the same the last say - 10 years - the media has learned that front paging the crap out of police shootings they can turn it into the next national moment. Greater exposure creates the idea that such things are happening with greater frequency.

Imagine if the US Media reported every single small plane crash and made a media day of each. If that were the case they would have a new crash of any given severity to report every few days. Suddenly, the perception is that small planes are falling from the sky left and right... what is not conveyed in such a style of reporting is the hundreds of thousands of flight hours which took place during that crash prone 8 or 9 hours.

Originally Posted by Oberon

the attitude of the police seems to be regarding the public as less of an entity to be protected and more an entity to be combatted.

and i cant imagine why

Originally Posted by Oberon

Clearly there are those who will always be convinced that there is a problem, who have built their careers on there being a problem, and there are those who are vehemently opposed to there being a problem even if there is one that they are willing to label their opposition in all forms of fanciful names.

How would you like a middle of the road perspective?

you are dealing with 5 segments of race in America, not 2. everybody thinks there are 2 sides to the story... well there are 5 where blacks and whites are concerned in America

1. whites
2. under achieving whites
3. blacks
4. under achieving blacks
5. other

1. Whites raise their kids to respect folks, even if they are different, they punish their kids for spitting our racial slurs, they work hard, live in a nice house, drive a nice car, successfully pursue higher education, they work along side of blacks every day. and nobody really has a problem.

2. under achieving whites sit around and collect welfare checks, what little money they do bring home from whatever job they work this month they blow on bud lite, tattoos, pickup truck accessories and lord knows what else. They consider blacks lazy and the root of the problem.

3. Blacks raise their kids to respect folks, even if they are different, they punish their kids for spitting out racial slurs, they work hard, live in a nice house, drive a nice car, successfully pursue higher education, they work hard along side of whites every day. and nobody really has a problem.

4. under achieving blacks sit around and collect welfare checks, what little money they do bring home from whatever job they work this month they blow on colt 45 malt liquor, tattoos, spinning rims and lord knows what else. they consider whites to be in control of the world and the root of the problem.

5. other... the Jesse Jackson's and the - i dunno - Bill O'riellys. the profiteer off the entire situation and nothing gets accomplished and it seems like the worse things are, the more attention these guys get and the worse everything seems to get.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by GoldenRivet

First, i'd like to point out that the young man was not shot, though i understand you are probably not implying that

Second, is there really a trend indicating the rise of police shootings?

When i wanted to buy a Jeep Wrangler, i never used to see them on the road. The day after i bought one, i was waving left and right at dozens of other Jeep Wrangler drivers on every outing i went on.

I would venture to guess that while the percentage of police shootings has probably remained roughly the same the last say - 10 years - the media has learned that front paging the crap out of police shootings they can turn it into the next national moment. Greater exposure creates the idea that such things are happening with greater frequency.

Imagine if the US Media reported every single small plane crash and made a media day of each. If that were the case they would have a new crash of any given severity to report every few days. Suddenly, the perception is that small planes are falling from the sky left and right... what is not conveyed in such a style of reporting is the hundreds of thousands of flight hours which took place during that crash prone 8 or 9 hours.

Valid point, valid point. You've also got the internet which harvests every single news story, no matter where it goes in the national and international media, the internet will find it and the relevent parties who decide that it is for their interest will publish it within their circle and that will increase its exposure.

and i cant imagine why

The problem is, is that you can't have a force which has the stated objective 'Protect and Serve' consider the people that it's meant to protect as the enemy. You can understand why such a mindset might have crept in, but it has to be quashed, otherwise if you get into a situation where the police are no longer trusted to act fair and neutral then you might as well just disband them and go for mob rule because people will just take the law into their own hands anyway. Obviously some people will do this anyway in certain areas, but it's when it creeps into other sections of society that it becomes dangerous.
I'm not saying that all the police are bad, it's the same in the UK, it's the bad eggs that get all the attention, but it's like weeds in a garden, if you don't dig them out, if you don't pull them up by the roots then it just chokes the rest of the plant life around it and it whithers and dies.

How would you like a middle of the road perspective?

you are dealing with 5 segments of race in America, not 2. everybody thinks there are 2 sides to the story... well there are 5 where blacks and whites are concerned in America

1. whites
2. under achieving whites
3. blacks
4. under achieving blacks
5. other

1. Whites raise their kids to respect folks, even if they are different, they punish their kids for spitting our racial slurs, they work hard, live in a nice house, drive a nice car, successfully pursue higher education, they work along side of blacks every day. and nobody really has a problem.

2. under achieving whites sit around and collect welfare checks, what little money they do bring home from whatever job they work this month they blow on bud lite, tattoos, pickup truck accessories and lord knows what else. They consider blacks lazy and the root of the problem.

3. Blacks raise their kids to respect folks, even if they are different, they punish their kids for spitting out racial slurs, they work hard, live in a nice house, drive a nice car, successfully pursue higher education, they work hard along side of whites every day. and nobody really has a problem.

4. under achieving blacks sit around and collect welfare checks, what little money they do bring home from whatever job they work this month they blow on colt 45 malt liquor, tattoos, spinning rims and lord knows what else. they consider whites to be in control of the world and the root of the problem.

5. other... the Jesse Jackson's and the - i dunno - Bill O'riellys. the profiteer off the entire situation and nothing gets accomplished and it seems like the worse things are, the more attention these guys get and the worse everything seems to get.

That's a pretty fair assessment. Obviously you can't generalise too much, there's plenty of folks out there, black and white, who are in the under achieving section but are working hard to try and get out. Also there are plenty of white folks who have lots of money who consider blacks to be lazy and the source of the problem. Probably more so than wealthy blacks who consider whites to be the problem. So it splinters up a bit more than a five point lay-out, but I do see where you're coming from.
The question perhaps to ask is, is the situation getting worse? And depending on the answer to that, how do we stop it from either being or seeming to be that way?

[GoldenRivet]

Originally Posted by Oberon

That's a pretty fair assessment. Obviously you can't generalise too much, there's plenty of folks out there, black and white, who are in the under achieving section but are working hard to try and get out. Also there are plenty of white folks who have lots of money who consider blacks to be lazy and the source of the problem. Probably more so than wealthy blacks who consider whites to be the problem. So it splinters up a bit more than a five point lay-out, but I do see where you're coming from.
The question perhaps to ask is, is the situation getting worse? And depending on the answer to that, how do we stop it from either being or seeming to be that way?

Its a pretty fair assessment - for a generalization. Its a 30 pace assessment. It works well when viewed from 30 paces, but its flaws are exposed as you walk nearer to it.

while true that it is oversimplified for the sake of forum posting - its about dead on accurate as a generalization can get.

It is unfortunate though where black America is. you see... I, like many other conservative types i pal around with (and we have these discussions frequently) want blacks to succeed, we want them to be highly educated, we want to see them hold high paying positions and be masterful members of society commanding high salaries and joining us for cocktails at our Christmas parties.

but black culture in America is such that if you do these things... your just guilty of trying to be white. There is an expectation that you wear a hoddie, there is an expectation that you listen to the rhythmic bass of inner city rap music thumping away. Your expected to talk street a certain way. Its as if there is an image to maintain with being black, and if you step outside of the box the rest of your peers expect you to fit into you are ostracized. this is not prevalent in white culture. We've got snobby paris hilton types, red necks, we have middle class types, we've got the metrosexual types... and for the most part, one white peer doesnt really give that much of a crap which of those groups you fit into and there certainly isnt the notion that you are "betraying your race" if you pick a box to get into it.

Being that my parents were in the medical field i knew a hand full of black surgeons/doctors/practitioners etc. in knowing them i also knew their children, some my age, some younger, some older.

universally. they were treated differently. They went to school with their khaki pants and their button up shirts, the spoke to their teachers with yes Ma'am and No ma'am, they were intelligent, and articulate when they spoke to others. you didnt get "Yo dawg, say... say... yo where da lye barry at?" from them... no you got "Excuse me, can you please direct me to the Library?"... other blacks, probably 90% of them hated those aspects of these kids. They were literally ostracized by their own race. they knew it... we knew it... their parents knew it.

while other black kids were wearing panty hose on their heads and had one pant leg rolled up and the other all the way down, and the waste of the pants worn around the hips or in some cases the knees with underwear visible... these kids wanted nothing to do with that, the came to school, got good marks, went home, studied, took their cello lessons and went on about life.

today, a couple of them are Doctors, one i think is a lawyer, one died of cancer at a very young age of maybe 20 years old (i remember her being the most beautiful black woman i had ever seen in my life and she still holds this title)

the ones that ostracized them... well... im not 100% certain what most of them do. some of them sweep gravel off the highway, others pick up my garbage. and that to me is very sad, that these kids, probably out of fear that they too would be ostracized for "acting white" now have thrown away any chance they had at achieving great things... just for the sake of maintaining an image and fitting into a box they felt compelled to fit into.

that, in my opinion is what is wrong with black America. that, in my opinion is what i think needs to be fixed first before we do anything else.

i would certainly like to have a young black teens take on that. I've not had the opportunity to discuss it with one.

but that brings up the other issue.

if you're white and you step out of line where a black person is concerned... your branded with the scarlet letter "R" for racist. you'll lose friends, you'll likely lose your job. What one black person does to another is simply passed off as "crap happens" but if a white person steps on a toe gives the wrong look - well here comes the R word and you're hosed

[Tchocky]

It is unfortunate though where black America is. you see... I, like many other conservative types i pal around with (and we have these discussions frequently) want blacks to succeed, we want them to be highly educated, we want to see them hold high paying positions and be masterful members of society commanding high salaries and joining us for cocktails at our Christmas parties.

Honest question - do you actually realise how insulting and patronising this attitude is?

but black culture in America is such that if you do these things... your just guilty of trying to be white. There is an expectation that you wear a hoddie, there is an expectation that you listen to the rhythmic bass of inner city rap music thumping away. Your expected to talk street a certain way. Its as if there is an image to maintain with being black, and if you step outside of the box the rest of your peers expect you to fit into you are ostracized. this is not prevalent in white culture.

You being a white guy would of course have at least a working knowledge of what "white culture" (jesus, whatever that is) does and does not contain.

Of course you have the same level and depth of knowledge of what "black culture" does or does not contain.


Strewth.

[GoldenRivet]

Originally Posted by Tchocky

Honest question - do you actually realise how insulting and patronising this attitude is?

in re-reading it, yes, i do... and i apologize and phrase it another way.

*White folks. for the most part. are generally viewed by a lot of people as wanting to hold the black populace down for some reason - that couldn't be further from the truth. Yes, there are whites who do not want any part of black success in America, some of whom would go out of their way seeking positions of power for the sole purpose of preventing it probably. but i have to tell you... of the hundreds of white males i socialize with, do business with etc, i cannot name one that feels that way.

is that a less insulting and patronizing way to make the point?

because i certainly didn't mean to indicate that all blacks are ghetto trash that we need to make into something better. I see how my post could be construed as such. what i was implying was that whites have this reputation of not wanting to see black success and - at least in the educated classes - that simply is not the case.

[Tchocky]

Originally Posted by GoldenRivet

in re-reading it, yes, i do... and i apologize and phrase it another way.

No apology necessary, I didn't think you really meant it as I read it.

*White folks. for the most part. are generally viewed by a lot of people as wanting to hold the black populace down for some reason - that couldn't be further from the truth.

Hmm. Don't agree that that's the general view, there's a lot of institutionalised racism and societal inertia that creates this kind of narrative. Like everything else it's a lot more complex than this, but I think there's definitely in some states a bias against minorities that doesn't require or depend on the actual malignant personal racism that used to exist.

Yes, there are whites who do not want any part of black success in America, some of whom would go out of their way seeking positions of power for the sole purpose of preventing it probably. but i have to tell you... of the hundreds of white males i socialize with, do business with etc, i cannot name one that feels that way.

In my entire life I've met two.

is that a less insulting and patronizing way to make the point?

Definitely.

because i certainly didn't mean to indicate that all blacks are ghetto trash that we need to make into something better. I see how my post could be construed as such.

Aye, figured as much. No harm meant.

what i was implying was that whites have this reputation of not wanting to see black success and - at least in the educated classes - that simply is not the case.

Can only add that I agree it's not the case and disagree that it's a commonly held reputation. Then again I've not lived in the US for quite a while now.