ISP 2.0 is READY!

[HertogJan]

Hi TorpX,


I have a question bout the max surface range and submerged range for the Porpoise class you set ISP 2 (TMO) too.
_TMO =13358m at 13.5Knts
_ISP 2.4 =8114m at 10knts
(13358m at 10knts sounds about right to mee).

I've been looking at different sites for references and keep getting the aprox same surface range which are between 12.000Nm and 13.000Nm for te Porpoise class but when I look at your settings (s3d) they show 8114 miles which is
7050.8 Nm.
I know the game doesn't render the distances correctly compared to real-life but this is really low. Is there a reason you set it that low and does it affect the range in game?



PS_ I read you're tweaking the weather some and am wondering how that's going, I would like to try out your mod in combination with OTC.
(That's why I started looking into the changes you made and see how much your mod changes OTC's as sort of a prep. work prior to installation).

As I can see your Data/submarine/ *.sim file (which is a important file) it changes everything from top to bottom in '11: Unit Submarine' compared to OTC how that effects it, I don't know, but seeing some ppl are using both and its working for them I'm wondering. I remember from a mail from CapnScurvy OTC does not like the changes to draft heights.

Quote from mail:
"The question of whether changing the draft figure in the ships .cfg file would change the correction of the height figure (which does effect the stadimeter/visual telemeter readings)....no, it will not. The .cfg "Draft=" figure (which is in meters....all figures are in meters) only shows up in the Recognition Manual. It doesn't effect the ship model at all.

It's not this figure that changes how the ship sits in the water. To change how a ship sit's in the water, you'll need to open the Data/Sea/shipname.sim (using S3D) file and find the "Mass:" figure. The heaver the Mass:, the deeper in the water it will sit. This type of change WILL effect the Height= (the "Mast=") figure in the .cfg file.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding it but to me it sounds like: do not mess with draft height if you want OTC's visuals to work properly.

Maybe CapnScurvy can shed some more light on to this (again).


what started out as a simple inquiry turned into a big question

[CapnScurvy]

You are right HertogJan, the ship's .sim file...... based on its "Unit_Ship/Mass=" figure, will change how the ship sit's in the water. When changing that figure from what OTC used to calculate height measurements, there will definitely be errors in Range finding. No doubt about it.

On another note: The "Draught=" figure in the .sim file is what the game uses to calculate whether a torpedo will hit or miss the target ship. No matter how the ship sit's in the water. It is independent to the Mass figure. If you set the Draught figure to say 1 meter, you'll get a miss every time. The "Unit_Ship/Submerged/Draught=" figure in the .sim file should be reasonable in its measurement, AND the Draft= figure in the .cfg file should be exact to the figure set in the .sim file. Both are in meters. The .sim file is what the game uses for torpedo contact; the .cfg file is what is displayed in the Recognition Manual that will make a torpedo contact......provided they are the same and you set the torp depth accordingly.

[TorpX]

Originally Posted by HertogJan

Hi TorpX,


I have a question bout the max surface range and submerged range for the Porpoise class you set ISP 2 (TMO) too.
_TMO =13358m at 13.5Knts
_ISP 2.4 =8114m at 10knts
(13358m at 10knts sounds about right to mee).

I've been looking at different sites for references and keep getting the aprox same surface range which are between 12.000Nm and 13.000Nm for te Porpoise class but when I look at your settings (s3d) they show 8114 miles which is
7050.8 Nm.

Ok, for the surface ranges, the ISP values are based on Norman Friedman's work, US SUBMARINES THROUGH 1945. He lists the Porpoise as having 6,000 nm range. Later 'P' class boats had a longer range, but I decided to go with the lower figures, as it didn't make sense to have 2 'P' classes. Then I took the 6,000 nm figure multiplied it by 1.3, because the Navy was said to incorporate a 30% fuel margin for battery charging. Then I added a small 'flat-earth bonus' to account for the map distortion in the game. About 5%, iirc.

Players tend to like mods that give then more range, firepower, etc., but I wanted this to be a high realism mod. Subs did run short of fuel, and have to cut short patrols. It was a operational fact of life. That's the biggest reason why the USN set up forward bases, when the opportunity came. If anything, I think the fuel/range figures are a bit generous.

The submerged ranges are arbitrary, and cannot be compared to any reference figures, because of the way the game battery performance is totally broken. Many who wanted to mod the game have found this out. You cannot get sensible submerged ranges just by putting the numbers in the *.sim files. It won't work!

The figures in the mod will give you approximately historical submerged ranges, but not exactly. I had to compromise, because there was no way to make all the numbers come out right for all the classes of boats. The S-class have somewhat less range than the references state, and the fleetboats somewhat more. Nevertheless, performance is much closer to real-life than before.



About the draft ht. and mast ht. I didn't change any mast height figures for obvious reasons. As far as the actual drafts of the ships, I made changes here and there as required for their stability. These changes were mostly small ones. There may be slight differences in your stadimeter readings for this reason, but I would not be unduly concerned. There is no way any skipper could know the exact draft of any ship, except his own. They varied according to the load carried.

[merc4ulfate]

Diving was done daily in order to adjust the trim of the boat and to determine the salinity of the water at different depths. A war time dive could be completed in 30 seconds. A submarine going into a dive causes a shifting of the center of gravity and the center of buoyancy. The metacenter is a point where the center of gravity of the boat coincides with the center of buoyancy; a very hazardous point which must be passed quickly. If the center of gravity and the center of buoyancy are coincident and if a wave were to hit the boat from the side, capsizing could occur.

Jack Higgins and Paul Wittmer

http://www.subvetpaul.com

[HertogJan]

Originally Posted by TorpX

Ok, for the surface ranges, the ISP values are based on Norman Friedman's work, US SUBMARINES THROUGH 1945. He lists the Porpoise as having 6,000 nm range. Later 'P' class boats had a longer range, but I decided to go with the lower figures, as it didn't make sense to have 2 'P' classes. Then I took the 6,000 nm figure multiplied it by 1.3, because the Navy was said to incorporate a 30% fuel margin for battery charging. Then I added a small 'flat-earth bonus' to account for the map distortion in the game. About 5%, iirc.

Players tend to like mods that give then more range, firepower, etc., but I wanted this to be a high realism mod. Subs did run short of fuel, and have to cut short patrols. It was a operational fact of life. That's the biggest reason why the USN set up forward bases, when the opportunity came. If anything, I think the fuel/range figures are a bit generous.

Thank you for your input, I'll give your settings a go when you released the tuned version of ISP. I'm Not much for 'over the top stuff' myself.. but like to keep thing playable.
I can always set it higher in the .sim file if I keep running out of fuel (which will probably happen the first couple careers ) as a sort of a upgrade to a new P class

Originally Posted by TorpX

The submerged ranges are arbitrary, and cannot be compared to any reference figures, because of the way the game battery performance is totally broken. Many who wanted to mod the game have found this out. You cannot get sensible submerged ranges just by putting the numbers in the *.sim files. It won't work!

The figures in the mod will give you approximately historical submerged ranges, but not exactly. I had to compromise, because there was no way to make all the numbers come out right for all the classes of boats. The S-class have somewhat less range than the references state, and the fleetboats somewhat more. Nevertheless, performance is much closer to real-life than before.

Regarding the submerged range, if you got subs to go the range shown in the .sim file that would be a major improvement, Co2 will come into play more.

Originally Posted by TorpX

About the draft ht. and mast ht. I didn't change any mast height figures for obvious reasons. As far as the actual drafts of the ships, I made changes here and there as required for their stability. These changes were mostly small ones. There may be slight differences in your stadimeter readings for this reason, but I would not be unduly concerned.

Don't misunderstand me, I'm glad it works in conjunction with your Mod, but I see a couple of posts where OTC is installed over your Mod and while I was typing former post about ranges I wondered and started thinking about it.
Loading OTC over your Mod will nullify the tweaks you made.

Originally Posted by TorpX

There is no way any skipper could know the exact draft of any ship, except his own. They varied according to the load carried.

Indeed, the only way you could see the difference and I'm guessing you'd need a lot of experience as a skipper to guesstimate the load (full or empty) of a vessel correctly.
They would have needed to know how how high a ship lays in the water when empty, for all ships.

[pdiddy]

Concerning drafts, seems we often go for the keel shot which is fun and the way the game is set up is conducive to it.

Reading "Clear the Bridge" right now, and seems O'Kane always set the torps to run as shallow as possible only setting them deeper when he feared the torps might skip through heavier waves possibly triggering premature detonation.

One less thing to worry about I suppose. He also had no qualms about pumping 4 torpedos into a merchant to ensure sinking (even though 3 might do the job) and didn't view the deck gun as a viable weapon vs a surface target.

[TorpX]

Originally Posted by HertogJan

Regarding the submerged range, if you got subs to go the range shown in the .sim file that would be a major improvement, Co2 will come into play more.

Yes, it does. This is a big improvement, if you patrol submerged much. Before, I might submerge (in a S-class) for 12 hrs. at 1.5 or 2 knots, and still barely be able to recharge the batteries that night. Now, I can run submerged at 3 or 3.5 kn. and easily recharge the batteries in a few hours. It is much better.

Originally Posted by pdiddy

Concerning drafts, seems we often go for the keel shot which is fun and the way the game is set up is conducive to it.

Not sure about that. I don't think the merchants in RFB have defined keel zones that can be hit; meaning keel shots would be a waste of time. It has always struck me as being unrealistic anyway.
Most of the time, 1 or 2 torps will sink a merchant. Maybe it is different with TMO and other mods.

It's good that you're reading O'Kane; very worthwhile "training".

I've started reading Blair's history of the Atlantic U-boat campaign. It seems the Germans had as much trouble with their torpedoes as the USN had. Very interesting.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by TorpX

It seems the Germans had as much trouble with their torpedoes as the USN had. Very interesting.

We've discussed that more than once over the years. The best article I've found so far is this:
http://digitalcommons.georgiasouther...99&context=etd

[TorpX]

Yes, I read that (last year?). Maybe that is why Blair's book has a familiar ring to it.

Something else that seems remarkable; I'm up to Sep. '40, and Donitz still has fewer boats than he did at war start. For the size of his force, losses were pretty high.