Huge pro-EU rally grips Ukraine

[Dowly]

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

how to spot a T-72B3:

now compare that to the three tanks in the video I posted.

For one, that huge "SOSNUA-S" (aka smoking gun) is missing.
Meteorogical sensor, much higher in that second photo that on the first one.
Can it be retracted? Is it unique to T-72B3? You claim so, show me proof.
Kontakt-5 is used by Russia, Ukraine and Serbia.
EDIT: Also, DVE-BS "aka Meteorogical sensor", appears to be a wind gauge used in T-90s, so who made that picture doesnt know what he talks about.

Again, what makes you think it is T-72B3?

Originally Posted by kranz

mass secret burials in Pskov and mobile crematories are nothing. ok.

I still have a few posts to reply to but I'll do it in 'due time'.

Proof? Oh wait, I've asked you before, you dont do 'proof'.

[Bilge_Rat]

Originally Posted by Dowly

There's more, but lastly, if there are so many Russian units in Ukraine,
where are the bodies? Where are photos of them?
If they are fighting, surely there'd be some evidence of them being there?

But.. we got nothing, just words saying "RUSSIANS!"

you mean...proof.. like this?

As fighting continued to flare in the east particularly around Donetsk airport, an online organisation has catalogued more than 260 people reportedly killed in eastern Ukraine. The Open Russia organisation , started by the Kremlin critic Mikhail Khodorkovsky, has also published a map showing where the dead are from.


The official denial of Russian military participation in Ukraine has pressured the relatives of those who served and died there to keep silent, and could deprive many of them of the benefits to which they are entitled. But some have started to speak out.


Yelena Tumanova, a hospital orderly from Russia’s Mari El republic, said her son Anton Tumanov told her by phone on 10 August that his army unit was being sent to Donetsk. On 20 August, a coffin came back to Mari El with a small window through which she could see his face. His legs had been torn off by an artillery strike, his comrades told her. He was 20 years old.

State-controlled television has occasionally reported on the deaths of Russian “volunteers” in Ukraine, but any discussion of servicemen being deployed there remains taboo. And despite a wealth of evidence that active-duty Russian soldiers have been in Ukraine – including 10 Russian paratroopers captured in Ukraine in August, Nato satellite photos showing tanks crossing the border, and a rash of secret funerals of soldiers across Russia – the Kremlin has denied that it has deployed troops to help the pro-Russia rebels.

The “volunteer” service Putin referred to is often anything but, according to several rights advocates. They say soldiers have told them that they were pressured to sign documents to go on a “business trip” to eastern Ukraine or “volunteer” in other ways. Tumanov told his mother that his commanders offered a 400,000-rouble bonus to sign up to fight in Ukraine, then simply ordered them forward when volunteers weren’t forthcoming. Some captured Russian paratroopers recounted that they had gone on a supposed training mission in armoured carriers and only later realised they were in Ukraine.

etc., etc.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...led-in-ukraine

the evidence is easy to find if you just bother to look for it.

[Dowly]

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

the evidence is easy to find if you just bother to look for it.

Then show me. Show me hard evidence of Russian units in Ukraine.

Again, why do you think those are T72B3s?

And as Ikalugin asked, "What special training does the 203mm gun require?"

You make these claims, now would be a good time to show some evidence.

[August]

I have to wonder Dowley, just what if anything would constitute real proof to you? Just trying to find out where you set the bar.

[Dowly]

Originally Posted by August

I have to wonder Dowley, just what if anything would constitute real proof to you? Just trying to find out where you set the bar.

I saw your last post before you deleted it, kinda could mirror your question back to you too.

Something concrete.

Not blurry satellite images that could be anything (ukraine and separatists have MRLSs), videos that show T72s, labeled as T72B3s (eventho the changes are mostly internal and would be very hard to identify as B3s).

Well.. anything really. Show me any actual proof, pictures, videos of Russian Units in Ukraine and I coincide my point.

If there was concrete proof, West would already be in Ukraine, but it's just "maybe"'s and "might"'s.

[Bilge_Rat]

Originally Posted by Dowly

Then show me. Show me hard evidence of Russian units in Ukraine.

At one point Dowly, you have to ask yourself a simple question: what do you believe?

for close to a year now, there have been claims of Russian units in Ukraine: You had an influx of Russian speaking "volunteers", the Rebels kept "capturing" brand new Russian military equipment, you had actual Russian soldiers that got "lost" wandering through Ukraine, you had many, many videos of unmarked units wearing Russian uniforms and riding in Russian military vehicles, you had a sudden reversal of UKR forces in august that could only plausibly be caused by an influx of new troops, you had multiple stories of secret military funerals in Russia , etc. etc.

Now what do you think is going on? Do you really think there is a massive western conspiracy to "invent" the presence of Russian troops in Ukraine? Why? to what end?

If the US/EU really wanted to arm Ukraine, they would just do it.

[kranz]

Originally Posted by Dowly

Proof? Oh wait, I've asked you before, you dont do 'proof'.

I really see completely no reason for posting new proofs since you haven't debunked the old ones.

[Rockstar]

Proof, you want proof Dowly? Well here it is, read it and weep buddy.

Sure its an artist's rendition, but its worked it before.

[Bilge_Rat]

T72-B3:







http://www.military-today.com/tanks/t72b3.htm




now check the video, you will see it is a match.

[kranz]

Originally Posted by August

I have to wonder Dowley, just what if anything would constitute real proof to you? Just trying to find out where you set the bar.

His bar is set to putin saying 'these are our troops'. Just like he admitted to seizing the Crimea and to sending the 'green people' there.

[Dowly]

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

At one point Dowly, you have to ask yourself a simple question: what do you believe?

for close to a year now, there have been claims of Russian units in Ukraine: You had an influx of Russian speaking "volunteers", the Rebels kept "capturing" brand new Russian military equipment, you had actual Russian soldiers that got "lost" wandering through Ukraine, you had many, many videos of unmarked units wearing Russian uniforms and riding in Russian military vehicles, you had a sudden reversal of UKR forces in august that could only plausibly be caused by an influx of new troops, you had multiple stories of secret military funerals in Russia , etc. etc.

Now what do you think is going on? Do you really think there is a massive western conspiracy to "invent" the presence of Russian troops in Ukraine? Why? to what end?

If the US/EU really wanted to arm Ukraine, they would just do it.

But we can't prove they were Russians, nor we can prove they werent.
Right?

Originally Posted by kranz

I really see completely no reason for posting new proofs since you haven't debunked the old ones.

List the evidence, then.

Originally Posted by Rockstar

Proof, you want proof Dowly? Well here it is, read it and weep buddy.

Sure its an artist's rendition, but its worked it before.

Does it make wine? Because if it does, I'm all for it!
Really, what is it?

[Betonov]

Originally Posted by Dowly

Does it make wine? Because if it does, I'm all for it!
Really, what is it?

It doesn't make Vodka, no distillation unit.
I'm guessing water purifier unit, division size.

[August]

Originally Posted by Dowly

Well.. anything really. Show me any actual proof, pictures, videos of Russian Units in Ukraine and I coincide my point.

Well you say you want actual proof but I have to wonder just what that entails exactly After all if those are indeed B3's then he has shown you proof and you're just refusing to recognize it. Is Kranz correct when he says nothing less than a public admission by Putin himself will do?

[CCIP]

Originally Posted by Dowly

Does it make wine? Because if it does, I'm all for it!
Really, what is it?

It was the among the "proof" that started the Iraq war in 2003. I mean, why would there be a massive conspiracy to "invent" the presence of chemical weapons in Iraq? Why? To what end?

If the US wanted to bomb Iraq, they would just do it.

[Dowly]

Originally Posted by August

Well you say you want actual proof but I have to wonder just what that entails exactly After all if those are indeed B3's then he has shown you proof and you're just refusing to recognize it. Is Kranz correct when he says nothing less than a public admission by Putin himself will do?

Ok, Bilge_Rat's first picture was this:


Seems to point towards the rectangular area.

I responded that it is found on number of T72s.

He posted this image next:


And I pointed out mistakes like:
For one, that huge "SOSNUA-S" (aka smoking gun) is missing from the original image.
Meteorogical sensor, much higher in that second photo that on the first one.
Can it be retracted? Is it unique to T-72B3? You claim so, show me proof.
Kontakt-5 is used by Russia, Ukraine and Serbia.
Also, DVE-BS "aka Meteorogical sensor", appears to be a wind gauge used in T-90s, so who made that picture doesnt know what he talks about.