Huge pro-EU rally grips Ukraine - Page 151

Oberon · 02-09-15, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CCIP

Same, but at the same time, at this point I also feel like a thorough collapse of the Russian economic (and with it, political) system is one of the only ways anything is going to change. I know it's a bit of a perverse thought since all my relatives and extended family are there, but I really don't know what else will change it. I guess that makes me one of those evil western-sympathising emigrants, but I honestly don't know what else will take Russia off the collision course with the West. Certainly not the current regime, who only seem to feed off the growing antagonism.

My concern is what will fill the void if Russias political and economic system does collapse.

mapuc · 02-09-15, 03:48 PM

Dear Ukrainian we support you psychologically, we can't support you physically by any means.

We will perhaps send some money, but no weapons of any kind, we are not interested in getting Russia even more angry as they already are.

Therefore Dear Ukrainian-you have to fight your enemies by you own with what you got.

Got the idea to this, when I saw todays news on Danish TV. Merkel against the American idea to send weapons to Ukraine.

Are I for or against? Well if it's true that Russia is supporting.....(forgot the word, for this fighting group in eastern Ukraine) then we should give the same support to the Ukraine in the west.

Markus

kranz · 02-09-15, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oberon

My concern is what will fill the void if Russias political and economic system does collapse.

I can tell you what can fill russians' plates if the system collapses - leather belt bouillon

(remember the Holodomor?)

CCIP · 02-09-15, 04:00 PM

Alright, that was uncalled for and offensive.

Catfish · 02-09-15, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mapuc

Dear Ukrainian we support you psychologically, we can't support you physically by any means.

Oh yes, the West has supported the Nazis and the Maidan from day one, you can imagine what they did with this money. Did you by any chance read what i wrote and quoted, from the Wiki?

Skybird · 02-09-15, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mapuc

Dear Ukrainian we support you psychologically, we can't support you physically by any means.

We will perhaps send some money, but no weapons of any kind, we are not interested in getting Russia even more angry as they already are.

Therefore Dear Ukrainian-you have to fight your enemies by you own with what you got.

Got the idea to this, when I saw todays news on Danish TV. Merkel against the American idea to send weapons to Ukraine.

Are I for or against? Well if it's true that Russia is supporting.....(forgot the word, for this fighting group in eastern Ukraine) then we should give the same support to the Ukraine in the west.

Markus

The Ukrainians had 23 years to come to terms with their newly founded state. But they kept on supporting corrupted politicians, right extremeists, and criminal elites, finding maybe even civil uprise and armed rebellion not worth it. So they got what they got, and they voted for what they got, and after 2 and a half decades they could have known what they voted for.

And after all, the basic sin is that 23 years ago the Ukraine never should have been formed up as one state in its modern borders, for that guaranteed the conflict to simmer on and on. And different to what is claimed now, a historic precedent for modern Ukraine'S teritory and thus its integrity - never existed.

If you make your bed to lay down in, and accept to have a mungo under the blanket and a cobra under the pillow - don't expect the night not to become "interesting".

When I, at the time they founded it as a state, as a young man and student could know how it would end, and said so to my buddies at university, then I fail to understand why political "experts" and people knowing the place much better than I do, could not have forseen it as well. Mayn people say they< find it tragic, and that they are stunned and surprised by how the Ukraine turns out to be. I say it turns out to be like it was to be expected that it would.

Heck, and back then I even was still not interested in politics at all!

CCIP · 02-09-15, 04:07 PM

As for supporting the Ukraine, as I said, the problem there is systemic. They really do need some serious support and reform, but not by way of handing them free weapons. That's not going to fix what's been a system that - on every side - has been dysfunctional, corrupt, and unable to function effectively. The various political sides have been pointing fingers in all sorts of directions, but the fact is that the bulk of the problem is internal. Ukraine is a failed state that had been unable to resolve its problems, especially problems of federalization. As much as it's easy to blame Russia here, what started this whole mess isn't outside interference, but a refusal between the "orange" and "blue" sides to have any kind of meaningful system that works for both, and an effort to keep everything centralized when clearly that's not going to work. They're trying to maintain what's effectively an early 20th-century nation-state model in a country that's neither a united nation, nor an effective state, nor is in the 20th century anymore. It won't bridge the huge division that had already split and polarized the country more than a decade ago. Weapons and war are only going to drive it further apart.

ikalugin · 02-10-15, 04:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kranz

I can tell you what can fill russians' plates if the system collapses - leather belt bouillon

(remember the Holodomor?)

Suffered by the South west of RSFSR on equal scale actually.

ikalugin · 02-10-15, 04:36 AM

CCIP you may find this:
http://foreignpolicy.com/2015/02/09/...rsPicksRS2%2F9
Article of interest to you.

August · 02-10-15, 07:04 AM

So Moscow thinks it's a bad idea to do what they've been doing for the rebels. Go figure.

ikalugin · 02-10-15, 07:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by August

So Moscow thinks it's a bad idea to do what they've been doing for the rebels. Go figure.

Did you read the article?

August · 02-10-15, 07:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ikalugin

Did you read the article?

I did. Does it not match the position of the Russian government?

ikalugin · 02-10-15, 07:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by August

I did. Does it not match the position of the Russian government?

Then your question is provocative, as in the article it is clearly stated that the Russian actions within the Ukrainian crisis (the support of separatist forces falls under that category) was in nature reactionary to actions of other parties.

Thus further escalation by those parties would lead not to deterence of Russia, but to an reactionary escalation.

In my opinion a perfect (if idealistic of me) would be a common, inclusive security treaty system within Europe, that understands and accommodates for all of the concerns by the states and is based on (but not limited to) existing common principles and agreements.

Such a treaty system would take away any valid security concerns (of Poland and Russia for example) while not being offensive towards any party in Europe (regardless of its' status within other organisations).

Ideally such system should also over rule any other exisiting security treaties within Europe (such as NATO and Collective Security Treaty) as to prevent a conflict between different less inclusive alliance systems within European region.

Skybird · 02-10-15, 07:56 AM

Paper is patient.

If I would base my views on believing blindly newspapers close to the US government, I would sing the US government's song, and if I would blindly believe what is written in Russian mainstream press, I would be an uncritical follower of Putin and read his lips in rapture.

Truth is neither side plays honestly here, and both sides are a side with interests that are opposing the interests of the other side.

The treaty system you refer to, ikalugin, has been kicked with boots form both sides by now, diplomatic boots from the West violating it in its spirit, and factual boots from the East violating it's written letter. To me, both are offences rendering the treaty useless, seen that way the us mushing for NATO moving onto Russian borders even more is as guilty as Russia de facto running a military support and combat operation in another formally sovereign nation (how ever stupidily designed that nation may have come into life). I by now consider those security treaties to be obsolete.

We are back for a cold war and arms race. And since no side is really financially well-armed for a repetition of that, it will become a very interesting adventure and economic impacts on both sides of the "frontline" once the debt bombs explode into our faces. By the years 2018-2020, Russia will have completed more or less its modernization cycle of its ground forces, then we will see if after that they start to grow in size, or remain on the quality and quantity levels they are on. The West will continue to shrink its forces for getting fewer, more expensive platforms in a hope of them being superior enough to compensate for numerically being outnumbered. And I doubt that formula will work better than it did during the last cold war - in case of a war in the past that would have - despite all reason - have excluded nuclear weapons, I think the Soviets would have raced through right to the channel. Maybe under high losses - but they would have won it. After all, it seems to me NATO's bid back then was not to prevent a Soviet victory, but to make it so costly that Moscow would decide that it would be too expensive a victory.

kranz · 02-10-15, 08:29 AM

yup, we need another treaty. like the one signed in Minsk.
Separatists with russian support being sent through the backdoor has pushed forward much beyond the borders set in the treaty. Yet they say we should NOT send weapons to Ukraine to avoid the escalation of the conflict...

the latest news is that Ukrainian positions in Krematorsk were attacked with the Tornado system rockets - in service only in the russian army.

02-09-15, 04:00 PM	#2254
CCIP Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Waterloo, Canada Posts: 8,700 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 2	Alright, that was uncalled for and offensive. __________________ There are only forty people in the world and five of them are hamburgers. -Don Van Vliet (aka Captain Beefheart)

02-09-15, 04:07 PM	#2257
CCIP Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Waterloo, Canada Posts: 8,700 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 2	As for supporting the Ukraine, as I said, the problem there is systemic. They really do need some serious support and reform, but not by way of handing them free weapons. That's not going to fix what's been a system that - on every side - has been dysfunctional, corrupt, and unable to function effectively. The various political sides have been pointing fingers in all sorts of directions, but the fact is that the bulk of the problem is internal. Ukraine is a failed state that had been unable to resolve its problems, especially problems of federalization. As much as it's easy to blame Russia here, what started this whole mess isn't outside interference, but a refusal between the "orange" and "blue" sides to have any kind of meaningful system that works for both, and an effort to keep everything centralized when clearly that's not going to work. They're trying to maintain what's effectively an early 20th-century nation-state model in a country that's neither a united nation, nor an effective state, nor is in the 20th century anymore. It won't bridge the huge division that had already split and polarized the country more than a decade ago. Weapons and war are only going to drive it further apart. __________________ There are only forty people in the world and five of them are hamburgers. -Don Van Vliet (aka Captain Beefheart)

02-10-15, 04:36 AM	#2259
ikalugin Ocean Warrior Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 3,212 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 0	CCIP you may find this: http://foreignpolicy.com/2015/02/09/...rsPicksRS2%2F9 Article of interest to you. __________________ Grumpy as always.

02-10-15, 07:04 AM	#2260
August Wayfaring Stranger Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 23,244 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	So Moscow thinks it's a bad idea to do what they've been doing for the rebels. Go figure. __________________ Flanked by life and the funeral pyre. Putting on a show for you to see.

02-10-15, 07:56 AM	#2264
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,740 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	Paper is patient. If I would base my views on believing blindly newspapers close to the US government, I would sing the US government's song, and if I would blindly believe what is written in Russian mainstream press, I would be an uncritical follower of Putin and read his lips in rapture. Truth is neither side plays honestly here, and both sides are a side with interests that are opposing the interests of the other side. The treaty system you refer to, ikalugin, has been kicked with boots form both sides by now, diplomatic boots from the West violating it in its spirit, and factual boots from the East violating it's written letter. To me, both are offences rendering the treaty useless, seen that way the us mushing for NATO moving onto Russian borders even more is as guilty as Russia de facto running a military support and combat operation in another formally sovereign nation (how ever stupidily designed that nation may have come into life). I by now consider those security treaties to be obsolete. We are back for a cold war and arms race. And since no side is really financially well-armed for a repetition of that, it will become a very interesting adventure and economic impacts on both sides of the "frontline" once the debt bombs explode into our faces. By the years 2018-2020, Russia will have completed more or less its modernization cycle of its ground forces, then we will see if after that they start to grow in size, or remain on the quality and quantity levels they are on. The West will continue to shrink its forces for getting fewer, more expensive platforms in a hope of them being superior enough to compensate for numerically being outnumbered. And I doubt that formula will work better than it did during the last cold war - in case of a war in the past that would have - despite all reason - have excluded nuclear weapons, I think the Soviets would have raced through right to the channel. Maybe under high losses - but they would have won it. After all, it seems to me NATO's bid back then was not to prevent a Soviet victory, but to make it so costly that Moscow would decide that it would be too expensive a victory. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert. Last edited by Skybird; 02-10-15 at 08:10 AM.

02-09-15, 03:48 PM	#2252
mapuc CINC Pacific Fleet Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Denmark Posts: 20,589 Downloads: 37 Uploads: 0	Dear Ukrainian we support you psychologically, we can't support you physically by any means. We will perhaps send some money, but no weapons of any kind, we are not interested in getting Russia even more angry as they already are. Therefore Dear Ukrainian-you have to fight your enemies by you own with what you got. Got the idea to this, when I saw todays news on Danish TV. Merkel against the American idea to send weapons to Ukraine. Are I for or against? Well if it's true that Russia is supporting.....(forgot the word, for this fighting group in eastern Ukraine) then we should give the same support to the Ukraine in the west. Markus

02-10-15, 08:29 AM	#2265
kranz The Old Man Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Poland Posts: 1,430 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	yup, we need another treaty. like the one signed in Minsk. Separatists with russian support being sent through the backdoor has pushed forward much beyond the borders set in the treaty. Yet they say we should NOT send weapons to Ukraine to avoid the escalation of the conflict... the latest news is that Ukrainian positions in Krematorsk were attacked with the Tornado system rockets - in service only in the russian army.