Greek ship in 1939: neutral or not?

[Plague]

Yesterday I was in patrol in Atlantic Ocean near british coast in 1939 October 1st, and I saw a cargo traveling at nighttime with all light off.

I thought she was an enemy ship so I torpedoed her to death before I realized she was greek.
According to flags table, Greece joined Allied force only in 1940, so in 1939 that ship should have been neutral but when I returned to base the patrol's log showed that no neutral ship was sank.

How can you explain this?

I'm playing SH3+GWX+Merchant Fleet Mod.

[BigWalleye]

Originally Posted by Plague

Yesterday I was in patrol in Atlantic Ocean near british coast in 1939 October 1st, and I saw a cargo traveling at nighttime with all light off.

I thought she was an enemy ship so I torpedoed her to death before I realized she was greek.
According to flags table, Greece joined Allied force only in 1940, so in 1939 that ship should have been neutral but when I returned to base the patrol's log showed that no neutral ship was sank.

How can you explain this?

I'm playing SH3+GWX+Merchant Fleet Mod.

Ship was running dark in enemy coastal waters. That's a "Kick me!" sign. And I'd be really torqued if the game didn't give me credit. (Not that SH3 can be relied upon for historical accuracy.)

BTW, how did you know the ship was Greek? Was she flying a Greek ensign? Or did she just have "I'm Greek" painted on the side? Paint is cheap and easy to get. The MFM has lots of these ringers. IIRC, the owner painted the ship, but she flew the flag of (and counted as belonging to) the country she was leased to. So a Greek ship under British lease was British. And should be flying the Red Ensign if you could see it.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by BigWalleye

Ship was running dark in enemy coastal waters. That's a "Kick me!" sign. And I'd be really torqued if the game didn't give me credit. (Not that SH3 can be relied upon for historical accuracy.)

The problem there is that the game doesn't have any lit ships. They are all a mod, so it is very easy to find a darkened ship that is neutral. On the other hand unless the situation was obvious U-boat kaleuns didn't usually get into trouble for that. Most of the time they didn't get into trouble for sinking friendly ships.

[Plague]

Thanks for replies.
I supposed that ship was Greek because of the Greek colors and the huge word "Greece" painted on the hull, I'm sure there was no ensign on the mast (nor Greek neither British).

I didn't understand that MFM contains such misleading ships.... now I'm thinking about how many ships in the past I let to go because of this misunderstanding

From now on I will show no mercy.

[BigWalleye]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

The problem there is that the game doesn't have any lit ships. They are all a mod, so it is very easy to find a darkened ship that is neutral. On the other hand unless the situation was obvious U-boat kaleuns didn't usually get into trouble for that. Most of the time they didn't get into trouble for sinking friendly ships.

In fact, according to Clay Blair, RL commanders who sank neutrals were absolved of any blame and given full tonnage credit by BdU. Neutral tonnage counted toward qualification for a Ritterkreuz even when it was a "friendly" neutral like Spain or Portugal or if it brought the neutral into the war on the Allied side, as happened with Mexico and Brazil. Strict adherence to the Prize Rules was apparently never a serious issue.

BTW, I was unaware that lit ships were from a mod. Never played stock.

[Plague]

Originally Posted by BigWalleye

BTW, I was unaware that lit ships were from a mod. Never played stock.

Steve is right, illuminated ship is a feature of GWX.

This is a passage from GWX Manual:

Illuminated Ships

Historical background
Germany discussed treating well-lighted merchant ships as neutrals during its World War I unrestricted submarine warfare campaign, as belligerent merchant ships turned their lights off to avoid giving away their location, but this was only an informal convention. Neutral ships usually used red, green, and white navigation lights to reduce the danger of collisions at sea, but the masters of neutral merchant ships sailing alone during World War II would sail darkened if they felt U-boats would attack anyways.

Illuminated ships in GWX
Illuminated ships in GWX represent some (but not all) shipping of currently neutral countries; merchant ships from countries currently at war or allied with Germany will always sail under blackout conditions, while Red Cross hospital ships always sail under illumination. Note: Illuminated ships of neutral that leave port before their nations join the war are legitimate targets once war begins, but will remain lit until they reach port.

[BigWalleye]

Originally Posted by Plague

Steve is right, illuminated ship is a feature of GWX.

This is a passage from GWX Manual:

Illuminated Ships

Historical background
Germany discussed treating well-lighted merchant ships as neutrals during its World War I unrestricted submarine warfare campaign, as belligerent merchant ships turned their lights off to avoid giving away their location, but this was only an informal convention. Neutral ships usually used red, green, and white navigation lights to reduce the danger of collisions at sea, but the masters of neutral merchant ships sailing alone during World War II would sail darkened if they felt U-boats would attack anyways.

Illuminated ships in GWX
Illuminated ships in GWX represent some (but not all) shipping of currently neutral countries; merchant ships from countries currently at war or allied with Germany will always sail under blackout conditions, while Red Cross hospital ships always sail under illumination. Note: Illuminated ships of neutral that leave port before their nations join the war are legitimate targets once war begins, but will remain lit until they reach port.

I was not disputing Steve's comment. I have played GWX3 and NYGM, and both of them have ships lit up at night, particularly in the early war. As I said, I've never played stock. So I have always seen ships illuminated at night (and some in daylight, too!). I just figured it was built into the game.

[Plague]

incidentally.... I can't remember any illuminated ship in nighttime since I use MFM (even if it is not so long).
Maybe it is a coincidence, but do you know if this feature is mantained in MFM?

[CaptBones]

The lighted neutrals and Red Cross GWX ships are still there after installing MFM. I've seen quite a few, particularly in the North Sea during '39 and '40 (it's really aggravating to pursue interception of an RDF or hydrophone contact for hours, especially in bad weather, and then find those dratted nav lights and spot lights on the flag, shining brightly in the distance!).

Ah...but beware...MFM ships that have neutral hull markings but are not flying a corresponding neutral flag can, in fact, be neutrals and will cost you renown for sinking them. It's happened to me a couple of times...always a Norwegian ship crossing the North Sea heading home from Britain before April '40, (I wonder if IABL scripted them as little "Easter eggs"?) but I'd suspect there are others to challenge the "cruel" Kaleuns and reward the "chivalrous" ones!

[BigWalleye]

Originally Posted by CaptBones

The lighted neutrals and Red Cross GWX ships are still there after installing MFM. I've seen quite a few, particularly in the North Sea during '39 and '40 (it's really aggravating to pursue interception of an RDF or hydrophone contact for hours, especially in bad weather, and then find those dratted nav lights and spot lights on the flag, shining brightly in the distance!).

Ah...but beware...MFM ships that have neutral hull markings but are not flying a corresponding neutral flag can, in fact, be neutrals and will cost you renown for sinking them. It's happened to me a couple of times...always a Norwegian ship crossing the North Sea heading home from Britain before April '40, (I wonder if IABL scripted them as little "Easter eggs"?) but I'd suspect there are others to challenge the "cruel" Kaleuns and reward the "chivalrous" ones!

After reading Blair, I edited my Basic.cfg file to give full tonnage credit for sinking neutrals and deductions only for sinking friendlies. There was even a case of a German commander who sank a German commerce raider which was way away from its broadcast course. The skipper was exonerated (although I don't believe he was credited with the tonnage sunk ). In my reading, I have not found a single example of a German commander who was penalized in any way for sinking a neutral, so IMO the game should reflect this historical fact.

[Plague]

Originally Posted by CaptBones

Ah...but beware...MFM ships that have neutral hull markings but are not flying a corresponding neutral flag can, in fact, be neutrals and will cost you renown for sinking them.

What a pity you can't go on board to examine the documents of ships

Originally Posted by BigWalleye

In my reading, I have not found a single example of a German commander who was penalized in any way for sinking a neutral, so IMO the game should reflect this historical fact.

I agree with you; what have you edited in the basic.cfg?

[BigWalleye]

Originally Posted by Plague

I agree with you; what have you edited in the basic.cfg?

Just these 2 lines:

[RENOWN]
RenownReachGridObjCompleted=0; was 500
RenownPatrolGridObjCompleted=0; was 200
CompletedPatrol=0; was 100
NEUTRAL=1; was -1
ALLIED=1
AXIS=-1; was -10

Notepad or any text editor will do.

Then you can SINK 'EM ALL!

[Plague]

Originally Posted by BigWalleye

Then you can SINK 'EM ALL!

thanks

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by BigWalleye

After reading Blair, I edited my Basic.cfg file to give full tonnage credit for sinking neutrals and deductions only for sinking friendlies. There was even a case of a German commander who sank a German commerce raider which was way away from its broadcast course. The skipper was exonerated (although I don't believe he was credited with the tonnage sunk ). In my reading, I have not found a single example of a German commander who was penalized in any way for sinking a neutral, so IMO the game should reflect this historical fact.

I did the same years ago, the only difference is that I gave the neutrals a value of '0'. While I agree that there shouldn't be a penalty for sinking them I also believe that I shouldn't be rewarded, and that they shouldn't indiscriminately be fair game. That makes it too easy for me to just sink anything I feel like.

Just my personal foible.

[BigWalleye]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

I did the same years ago, the only difference is that I gave the neutrals a value of '0'. While I agree that there shouldn't be a penalty for sinking them I also believe that I shouldn't be rewarded, and that they shouldn't indiscriminately be fair game. That makes it too easy for me to just sink anything I feel like.

Just my personal foible.

Steve, your comment inspired me again. I set up the Randomized_events.cgf file in SH3C to randomly set the neutral renown multuplier to either 0 or 1. I vary the percentages with time. Early war, there is a 60% chance of no credit, going down to a 10% chance by 1942. So there is always a disincentive to sink neutrals. Most of the time, I will get full credit, but I won't know for sure at the time of the attack.

SH3C is DA BOMB!