Huge pro-EU rally grips Ukraine

[ikalugin]

Originally Posted by MH

Do you remember all the talk about the stability of Russian democracy and the possibility of old timers taking over.
...after all Gorby was almost overthrown , also NATO is armament business yet not exactly ISIS threatening Moscow.

Gorbachev was overthrown during the dissolution of the USSR, which was a De jure a separatist process (though Russia with Yeltsin did participate in said process).

[mapuc]

First of all, I follow Skybirds suggestion..do not believe anything whatever it's from our own sources or from Russian sources

There is a thing I can't understand

According to our news sources and NATO's intelligence there are Russian soldiers in Eastern Ukraine and there are Russian war material

Russia refuse these allegations

Here is what I don't understand

Either our sources is not telling us the truth

Or

Russia government are very well aware of this.
or
The Russian government do not have full control over it's military forces. Meaning that there are some Russian Generals that act of their own

Markus

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by ikalugin

Gorbachev was overthrown during the dissolution of the USSR, which was a De jure a separatist process (though Russia with Yeltsin did participate in said process).

According to that article this took place after the suggestion of an economic deal between Russia and the US failed to take place. Not suggesting that it was a direct result but it certainly can't have helped.
I wonder if Gorbachev had managed to get a deal with the US in a manner similar to that described in that article whether he would have managed to cling on to power a bit longer and ride through a more structured dissolution of the USSR. That being said, Yeltsin would still have worked to undermine him, but he might have been able to have pacified the hardliners a little with some economic relief...although it's always hard to tell what the hardliners would go for, they were particularly in denial in those last days of the USSR.

[Skybird]

Here is what I don't understand

Either our sources is not telling us the truth

Or

Russia government are very well aware of this.

or

The Russian government do not have full control over it's military forces. Meaning that there are some Russian Generals that act of their own

1 and 2 true, 3 extremely unlikely.

Nobody speaks all truth in all this. Because everybody has interests. Nothing is as easy for politicians and intel services than to tell lies and half-truths to the public. One could say it is part of the list with inevitable skills laid out in the job description.

[mapuc]

Originally Posted by Skybird

1 and 2 true, 3 extremely unlikely.

Nobody speaks all truth in all this. Because everybody has interests. Nothing is as easy for politicians and intel services than to tell lies and half-truths to the public. One could say it is part of the list with inevitable skills laid out in the job description.

When it comes to news from Ukraine I take it with a big lorry of salt.

It was due to some statement from a Russian Minister saying

You are telling us that there are Russian soldiers in Eastern Ukraine please show us some evidence

That's when I thought

Either....

[Catfish]

Again, can anyone tell me why Russia has been the enemy again, after the soviet fall in 1989 ?

[Betonov]

Originally Posted by Catfish

Again, can anyone tell me why Russia has been the enemy again, after the soviet fall in 1989 ?

the weapons industry can earn billions with terrorist hunts, but for a gazillion you need an opposing empire

[MH]

Originally Posted by Catfish

Again, can anyone tell me why Russia has been the enemy again, after the soviet fall in 1989 ?

What if Russia wants to be an enemy for the same reason you think west wants to be an enemy.
Look at what is going on in Russia ... state controlled media , economy , old time rhetoric and so on...Turkey
Old timer has took over.

Russia want slice of pie yet the slice doesn't want it , so Russia does what it does in Ukraine and blame CIA for mind controlling.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Catfish

Again, can anyone tell me why Russia has been the enemy again, after the soviet fall in 1989 ?

It takes longer than thirty years for the frost from a Cold War to thaw...

[mapuc]

I use this thread ´cause we discuss Russia or the "new Russia"

Earlier today I saw on the news a Swedish minister saying that the huge exercise that Russia held last week in the Baltic Sea. Was not only the biggest since the days of the cold war, but also very new in many way, which wasn't seen before.

It had something to do with Russian bombers(didn't really catch it)

Markus

[Skybird]

The manouvers in my view had a clear focus on possible logistical support for and defence of the Russian enclave at Kaliningrad.



It makes plenty of military sense to practice that in times of growing tensions. In case of a hot war I think Russia would try to hold it, due to its location that makes it ideal to serve as a spearhead from which to spread a radar and SAM umbrella deep into NATO territory - the same what Washington wanted to do with the Crimean.

[Catfish]

Originally Posted by Skybird

[...] In case of a hot war I think Russia would try to hold it, due to its location that makes it ideal to serve as a spearhead from which to spread a radar and SAM umbrella deep into NATO territory - the same what Washington wanted to do with the Crimean.

No!! You know exactly, like our news anchormen told us, that the NATO only installs rockets in the baltic states, Poland and Crimea, to protect Europe and Germany (only, of course) against syrian or iranian rockets!
Russia has nothing to do with it.

This is no joke, our good partners would never bely us, let alone our media. See all the ZDF news in 2012 and 2013.

Putin also has to believe that. If not, the NATO will drive that point home (probably straight to Moscow )

[MH]

Originally Posted by Catfish

No!! You know exactly, like our news anchormen told us, that the NATO only installs rockets in the baltic states, Poland and Crimea, to protect Europe and Germany (only, of course) against syrian or iranian rockets!
Russia has nothing to do with it.

This is no joke, our good partners would never bely us, let alone our media. See all the ZDF news in 2012 and 2013.

Putin also has to believe that. If not, the NATO will drive that point home (probably straight to Moscow )

Ok fine.
...but what is your issue here?
Is it that The Pie has not been split in fair manner which would satisfy Putin?.

I think Moscow has nothing to fear as long as Moscow remains in Moscow.
It seems the Russians has problem with accepting the reality that Putin's charm alone doesn't work on ex soviet block courtiers.
Quite opposite possibly...
Russia must offer something more than that....

[Catfish]

No it's not fine at all.
There's no pie to split.

On one hand i guess Putin will not give back Sevastopol, as for the upper east of the Ukraine it seems the russian-speaking majority does not want to belong to the Ukraine after the putsch, and Russia sends the russian-speaking population in the east goods and food, and maybe (!) arms.
The latter is not proven, unless you take the tank photos from Georgia some time ago as evidence, that Russia invades the Ukraine now, as those old photos were presented yesterday in our daily news as "evidence" lmao).

Issues?

What does the NATO want in the Ukraine?
Ah the Ukraine cried for becoming a NATO member, directy after some .. err .. putsch, and then some right wing ukrainian 'Nazis' with SS runes on their helmet helping the new 'president', and some Mr. Brennan from the CIA visiting Kiev.
All with full approvement of the people, fully democratically, be sure. And the EU messing all up in following what is fed to them by the NATO.

What exactly should Russia offer ? NATO gun and rocket positions around Moscow ? I somehow think theer is nothing Russia could do. The last three times it tried, it received a kick in the behind, and a lot of laughter, from Bismarck to the post-cold war west.


Once again ye olde question: Why is Russia seen as an enemy, from 1990 on ?

[MH]

Originally Posted by Catfish

What does the NATO want in the Ukraine?
Ah the Ukraine cried for becoming a NATO member, directy after some .. err .. putsch, and then some right wing ukrainian 'Nazis' with SS runes on their helmet helping the new 'president', and some Mr. Brennan from the CIA visiting Kiev.
All with full approvement of the people, fully democratically, be sure. And the EU messing all up in following what is fed to them by the NATO.

What exactly should Russia offer ? NATO gun and rocket positions around Moscow ? I somehow think theer is nothing Russia could do. The last three times it tried, it received a kick in the behind, and a lot of laughter, from Bismarck to the post-cold war west.

Enough with this SS mantra.
Yes there are right wingers and nazis in Ukraine , Russian media will scream about it because there is still nothing more just in Russia than fighting fascist aggressors.
This is good old manipulation .. just like in USA communism or in Russia capitalism used to be.
With those , one could scare children at night yet both are irrelevant somewhat by now.
In Russia the fascism mantra still works.

The putsch in Ukraine happened due to dissatisfaction to prolonged corruption.
Give some credit to the people as well ... people may lose the patience in particular when seeing the NATO members courtiers bordering with Ukraine improving while their own country regressing into filth.
Not everything is about CIA mind controlling... comm..on CIA cant even get reliable intelligence by torture....

If the role reversed Putin would be installing the missile defense where ever he can....right now he is at the wrong side of stick and plays this insulted no bull**** we will show them yet politician part.