Huge pro-EU rally grips Ukraine

[Dmitry Markov]

Yep, technically even Crimea wasn't "annexed" - it was a reunion with an independent state.
As for Abhazia and South Osetia, they are independent states and so far they didn't ask for joining RF. On the other hand, the Republic of Crimea did.

PS. I haven't checked this thread for some time - there were some fantastic "holy wars" I've missed - wish it could be the only kind of human antagonism...

[ikalugin]

Meanwhile - Russia has completed formation of the new regiment in Crimea, it's commander used to serve in the Ukrainian Armed forces.

The units which are/will be stationed in Crimea include but not limited to:
- 801st Naval Infantry Brigade.
- 501st Detached Naval Infantry Battalion.
- 1096th SAM Regiment.
- 126th Coastal Defence Brigade.
- newly formed 8th Detached Artillery Regiment.

Naval forces expected to be stationed in Crimea by 2020:
- 6 pr. 11356 frigates (under construction).
- 6 pr. 06363 submarines (under construction).
- up to 10 pr. 21631 Small Missile Ships (under construction).

Note - all of those vessels are capable of carrying long range cruise missiles, project 21631 is essentially an armed and mobile platform for it's 8 cell UKSK.

[Jimbuna]

I'd just like to flag up a point....

This thread has moved positively in the right direction and is now being debated in a positive, adult-like and non-aggressive manner.

Credit to all of you that make it so.

I for one certainly enjoy catching up on the thread developments.

[Bilge_Rat]

Criemea (from Ukraine) is the first one I assume (even through technically it went independent first and was recognised as such by Russia),

Yep, technically even Crimea wasn't "annexed" - it was a reunion with an independent state.

That may be the view from Russia, but that is not how the rest of the world sees it.

Crimea was invaded by Russian troops and annexed after a rather dubious referendum. It's an armed invasion, pure and simple.

For the record, no Nato member recognizes the annexation of Crimea by Russia.

[Skybird]

There are three decisive factors that determine the motives and goings of politics. The first factor is: power. The second is: power. And then the third is: power. Whoever thinks that politics is about finding reasonable answers to something, already approaches the issue of politics in a completely misled and mistaken attitude. - free quote after Roland Baader, German libertarian

The US is no exception from this, nor is it Russia. Both are imperial actors, or long to be imperial actors. None of them is holy, and none of them represents "just causes". That is just lies both tell their own people as an excuse. Their methods and ways may differ on not more than the cosmetic level. But their intentions and motives are the very same. None of the two is morally better than the other.

I do not chose between the two anymore. I reject both. Choosing between them, ilustrates a childish naivety, imo, comparable to still believing in good Santa Claus.

[Oberon]

The key factor really is finding what defines power, and what type of power that you're talking about hard or soft power. At the moment Russia exerts hard power on Ukraine, whilst the US exerts soft power on Russia. Both are having an effect, and are also affecting the nations around the area involved, but they are quite different in their approaches.

[ikalugin]

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

That may be the view from Russia, but that is not how the rest of the world sees it.

Crimea was invaded by Russian troops and annexed after a rather dubious referendum. It's an armed invasion, pure and simple.

For the record, no Nato member recognizes the annexation of Crimea by Russia.

Russian troops were already in Crimea and (as far as I know) did not exceed the 25 thousand troop strength limitation. Thus I do not see why you call this an invasion.

What did happen was the sovereignty infringement (movement of Russian troops outside of their bases without the clear cut permission from Ukrainian authorities), even though it did receive justification (Yanukovich who was not properly impeached and local authorities) at a later point.

What grounds do you have to doubt the referendum results? Similar results were achieved in 90s, local ethnic make up and the voting patterns are also indirectly showing that the results (majority for joining Russian Federation) were true.

I don't really care if other interested parties (and NATO/EU are interested parties in the Ukrainian crisis) call Russia an aggressor, compare Russia to Ebola and otherwise pursue their agenda. And Kosovo doesn't help.

[Skybird]

Think less subtle, Oberon. I fear I am about a more archetypical understanding of the term "power" that politicians yearn for. It is that craving for power that turns the whole political caste in East and West into anti-social parasites and bed-fellows of corrupted business.

Power for the sake of power, controlling things, being in command, standing on top of the heap, always wanting more, wanting it all.

"Ego" is what it is about, both on a national and an individual politicians' level. The just cause, the reasonable decision, the voluntary associating by others, have nothing to do with it.

Power. What else to say...

[Oberon]

Oh that, yeah, well that's part of human nature sadly. A desire to be King Rat at the top of the ladder, of course, you don't get to appreciate the view from the top of the ladder because you're too busy trying to stop one of the other rats from pulling you off the ladder.

[kranz]

Originally Posted by ikalugin

Russian troops were already in Crimea and (as far as I know) did not exceed the 25 thousand troop strength limitation. Thus I do not see why you call this an invasion.

What did happen was the sovereignty infringement (movement of Russian troops outside of their bases without the clear cut permission from Ukrainian authorities), even though it did receive justification (Yanukovich who was not properly impeached and local authorities) at a later point.

I don't really care if other interested parties

ok, I'm done with this thread. (basically got cancer reading this)
Trolls in the past have been keelhauled for lesser trolling but all of a sudden this guy gets some 'mod-shield' and is allowed to repeat his BS since August.
People who tried to argue with the troll either gave up (like me; Steve - the vids are there - take your time and find them; don't have the time? don't bother with 'moderating') or were banned (surprise, surprise).

[Oberon]

Well...Russian troops were already in Crimea, in their bases.

Then...they weren't in their bases, as ikalugin correctly pointed out, however the main quibbling point is the justification factor.
In my opinion the justification was lacking, however I can't point fingers at Russia when my own nation and our allies have used lesser justification for military action in the not too distant past.

[ikalugin]

Originally Posted by kranz

ok, I'm done with this thread. (basically got cancer reading this)

 

Trolls in the past have been keelhauled for lesser trolling but all of a sudden this guy gets some 'mod-shield' and is allowed to repeat his BS since August.
People who tried to argue with the troll either gave up (like me; Steve - the vids are there - take your time and find them; don't have the time? don't bother with 'moderating') or were banned (surprise, surprise).

Have a pleasant time of the day and I hope that you getting cancer was only a figure of speech.

However if you ever do revisit this thread, please quote my posts fully, as otherwise their meaning is changed by incomplete quotation.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by kranz

ok, I'm done with this thread. (basically got cancer reading this)
Trolls in the past have been keelhauled for lesser trolling but all of a sudden this guy gets some 'mod-shield' and is allowed to repeat his BS since August.

Not true. People are infracted, brigged or keelhauled for attacks on other members, or for disruptive or inflamatory posting. The member you are commenting on has attacked no one. Whether you agree with his statements is your business. How you respond to them is ours. Are his coments really 'BS'? Prove it. Even if you do prove it, he is still entitled to make his claims, as you are allowed to counter them.

People who tried to argue with the troll either gave up (like me; Steve - the vids are there - take your time and find them;

As I've said repeatedly, it's your job to link to the videos and prove your claim, just as it's his job to prove his.

don't have the time? don't bother with 'moderating') or were banned (surprise, surprise).

The person who was banned was discovered by Neal to be an old troublemaker who was banned before. The real surprise is that you would use him as an example. He was the problem, not the Subsim staff or the person he self-destructed over.

Please confine your comments to the topic at hand, and I will do the same.

[Bilge_Rat]

Originally Posted by ikalugin

Russian troops were already in Crimea and (as far as I know) did not exceed the 25 thousand troop strength limitation. Thus I do not see why you call this an invasion.

because it was an invasion of Ukraine by Russia, as "legitimate" as the invasion of Kuwait by Iraq in 1990.

Under the Kharkov agreements, Russian troops were confined to their bases and could only leave them to travel to and from Russia. Once they leave their bases to occupy Crimea, they were invading Ukraine.

What grounds do you have to doubt the referendum results? Similar results were achieved in 90s, local ethnic make up and the voting patterns are also indirectly showing that the results (majority for joining Russian Federation) were true.

let's see, where to start:

-referendum held at gunpoint by an invading force;

-referendum held in a two week period with only one side represented;

-no independent tabulation of results; etc., etc.

Now perhaps if a legitimate referendum had been held, the results would have been similar, but we will never know.

Only the Russians think invading a country, carving off a piece of its territory and holding a referendum at gunpoint is "legitimate".

[MH]

Originally Posted by Oberon

Oh that, yeah, well that's part of human nature sadly. A desire to be King Rat at the top of the ladder, of course, you don't get to appreciate the view from the top of the ladder because you're too busy trying to stop one of the other rats from pulling you off the ladder.

What is not about ego...ask Freud.

Yet when it comes to Putin I suppose he has some vision about future Russia , similar to how China is run.
In cases like this it is difficult to be concerned about every single citizen although the end result may benefit the whole nation...
Regular Russians are in a nothing to lose situation in this regard , they had been at the bottom including the ego.


In the west in more about here and right now.
Russians who don't have much tradition of democracy look at this western , sometimes schizophrenic behavior with skepticism.