Malaysian Airlines MH317 - Page 15

Stealhead · 09-12-14, 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oberon

Probably:

But with metal instead of wood.

You win at internet.

Meme master.

Jimbuna · 09-13-14, 05:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TarJak

Maybe or hey that metal is not used in aircraft manufacture but is used in suitcases or weapons.

What puzzles me is the fact they state they are going to such detailed and elaborate lengths but the recent report said squat.

Aktungbby · 09-22-14, 05:58 PM

A little fresh perspective : http://www.scmp.com/news/world/article/1556036/timeline-tragic-history-civilian-airliner-shootdown-incidents

Skybird · 11-14-14, 04:38 PM

It probably is more appropriate to post it here:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...et-attack.html

What I said in the other thread, still is valid here: further examination of this photo is needed. Just to claim that it is photoshopped, is not good enough. The claim needs to get proven. Because just a claim could be as wrong as the photo can be forged.

Repost from the other thread:

The airliner in the photo has two engines and it looks like a long body if judging that against the form of the wings. It seems to be a long plane, with twin-engine configuration - and that matches indeed the shape of a 777 that the downed MA17 has been.

The body length of a 777 is 63-73 meters, depending on specific model. If measuring the length of the airliner versus the distance between the fighter and the airliner, I find the distance to be around 9.5x the length of the airliner. Calculating with a airliner length of 70 meters, the shooting distance then is around 660 meters. That is the range for an infrared-guided short range AAM.

The pilot must have had visual contact then. At same altitude, he probably could not see the engine configuration, could not see whether there were two or four engines, the silhouette would allowed to see that if being at a higher or lower altitude, maybe. Maybe the pilot got an idea of the colour scheme, however.

And here we are at that old scenario again that was described as a possibility some weeks earlier - that maybe it was an intentional Ukrainian attack against the presidential Russian machine, an IL-96 with 4 engines. As I earlier showed, the colours schemes are anything but impossible to be mistaken.

Examination of this satellite image is needed. Trust in official Western sources is not justified - they are propaganda tools like Ukrainian and Russian official channels as well.

Note that the blue-red lines on both airlines are ABOVE the height level of wings and engines, they are not being partially blocked by the engines if looking at the planes from same altitude or slightly elevated position. I think for a pilot in that situation, that hprizonmtal line acros the full length of the main body served as a main hint for the pilot to identity the "Russian presidential plane".
__________________

mapuc · 11-14-14, 05:05 PM

^ You are right this photo need to be investigated by the best there are in that field of expertise

If I know the human psychology correct-there will always be people who claim the photo to be either genuin or false-what ever this investigation will show.

Markus

Oberon · 11-14-14, 05:07 PM

I thought that it was supposed to have been shot down by a Frogfoot?

That looks more like a MiG-29 or Su-27.

Skybird · 11-14-14, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oberon

I thought that it was supposed to have been shot down by a Frogfoot?

That looks more like a MiG-29 or Su-27.

And it weas claimed that cannon fire was used, not missiles.

While others claim it was a surface missile.

That is the charm of both the explanation scenarios: this new one unites the best from both.

I got two PMs claiming that it has already been proven that the photo is faked, the sender hopefully will provide his information tomorrow, he said. I cannot access the link he gave me, my security suite blocks it.

Skybird · 11-14-14, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mapuc

^ You are right this photo need to be investigated by the best there are in that field of expertise

If I know the human psychology correct-there will always be people who claim the photo to be either genuin or false-what ever this investigation will show.

Markus

Like with the earlier scneario (SU25 firing mike mike) I do not claim it is true - just that the claims need to be examined and further verified or falsified. The governments in Moscow and Kiev, Washington and London cannot be trusted in their claims, and they all have the means to produce forged material, and they all have motives to see their claims being pushed through.

Oberon · 11-14-14, 05:24 PM

It's not beyond the realms of possibility, likewise the Frogfoot and Buk proposals. The UAF does have the MiG-29s that Russia shipped back to them from Crimea although they were in pretty poor condition when they were captured. There's also some flying around from the Ukrainian display team and a couple of standard 29s have been shot down by pro-Russian forces.
The image quality though, doesn't match up to me, if I'm honest.

Other problems are apparently, according to a quick google search:

The image is 50km west of the crash site

The missile has been reported to have hit MH-17 on the left side of the cockpit, the opposite side to the direction the Aphid is coming in from in this photo
The text on the side of 'MH-17' in this picture is in the wrong place.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...edelstaedt.jpg
Note in this picture that the text 'malaysia' is above the wing spar, whereas in the satellite image it's forward of the wing spar...and in fact, bares some resemblance to the original 'Boeing' house title, like so:

Schroeder · 11-14-14, 05:31 PM

It's the daily fail. They only get stories right by accident. I would take it with a truck load of salt and wait for the professionals to analyze it. Until then I would say the probability of it being garbage is 90%.

Skybird · 11-14-14, 05:35 PM

There are many Western sites claiming it is a correct photo (liveleak for example). There are also many Western sites claiming that it is a fake (foxtrot alpha for example).

I really do not know what to make of it all. And we probbaly never can be sure anbyway. Maybe in the end we just will beoeiuve in the best faked version, and truth always stays in the hidden.

Because, as I said, all actors in this, Eastern as well as Western actors, have different motives.

Skybird · 11-14-14, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schroeder

It's the daily fail.

No, Focus also has it, and others. The source is Russia Channel 1. Daily Mail only parrots it.

Quote:

I would take it with a truck load of salt and wait for the professionals to analyze it.

Agreed on the salt,. but what experts do you prefer? Theirs - ours or somebody else's?

Schroeder · 11-14-14, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird

Agreed on the salt,. but what experts do you prefer? Theirs - ours or somebody else's?

The huge problem with the whole Ukrainian conflict is that each and every side is lying to us (which is why I have zero sympathy for any side anymore). So we'll probably never know for sure what really happened there.

mapuc · 11-14-14, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schroeder

The huge problem with the whole Ukrainian conflict is that each and every side is lying to us (which is why I have zero sympathy for any side anymore). So we'll probably never know for sure what really happened there.

Same here. My only concerns are for the civilians who is the real victims in this war-beside the truth.

Markus

Skybird · 11-14-14, 05:57 PM

Two truths about secret services always will stay the same: 1. The main part of their work is not focussed on somebody else, but on their own population and manipulating it; 2. The best tool of manipulation is to prevent information and to mix truths with half-truths.

09-22-14, 05:58 PM	#213
Aktungbby Gefallen Engel U-666 Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: On a tilted, overheated, overpopulated spinning mudball on Collision course with Andromeda Galaxy Posts: 30,030 Downloads: 24 Uploads: 0	Why such a fuss evidently par for the course A little fresh perspective : http://www.scmp.com/news/world/article/1556036/timeline-tragic-history-civilian-airliner-shootdown-incidents __________________ "Only two things are infinite; The Universe and human squirrelyness?!!

11-14-14, 04:38 PM	#214
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,660 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	It probably is more appropriate to post it here: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...et-attack.html What I said in the other thread, still is valid here: further examination of this photo is needed. Just to claim that it is photoshopped, is not good enough. The claim needs to get proven. Because just a claim could be as wrong as the photo can be forged. Repost from the other thread: The airliner in the photo has two engines and it looks like a long body if judging that against the form of the wings. It seems to be a long plane, with twin-engine configuration - and that matches indeed the shape of a 777 that the downed MA17 has been. The body length of a 777 is 63-73 meters, depending on specific model. If measuring the length of the airliner versus the distance between the fighter and the airliner, I find the distance to be around 9.5x the length of the airliner. Calculating with a airliner length of 70 meters, the shooting distance then is around 660 meters. That is the range for an infrared-guided short range AAM. The pilot must have had visual contact then. At same altitude, he probably could not see the engine configuration, could not see whether there were two or four engines, the silhouette would allowed to see that if being at a higher or lower altitude, maybe. Maybe the pilot got an idea of the colour scheme, however. And here we are at that old scenario again that was described as a possibility some weeks earlier - that maybe it was an intentional Ukrainian attack against the presidential Russian machine, an IL-96 with 4 engines. As I earlier showed, the colours schemes are anything but impossible to be mistaken. Examination of this satellite image is needed. Trust in official Western sources is not justified - they are propaganda tools like Ukrainian and Russian official channels as well. Note that the blue-red lines on both airlines are ABOVE the height level of wings and engines, they are not being partially blocked by the engines if looking at the planes from same altitude or slightly elevated position. I think for a pilot in that situation, that hprizonmtal line acros the full length of the main body served as a main hint for the pilot to identity the "Russian presidential plane". __________________ __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert. Last edited by Skybird; 11-14-14 at 05:03 PM.

11-14-14, 05:31 PM	#220
Schroeder Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Banana Republic of Germany Posts: 6,170 Downloads: 62 Uploads: 0	It's the daily fail. They only get stories right by accident. I would take it with a truck load of salt and wait for the professionals to analyze it. Until then I would say the probability of it being garbage is 90%. __________________ Putting Germ back into Germany.

11-14-14, 05:35 PM	#221
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,660 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	There are many Western sites claiming it is a correct photo (liveleak for example). There are also many Western sites claiming that it is a fake (foxtrot alpha for example). I really do not know what to make of it all. And we probbaly never can be sure anbyway. Maybe in the end we just will beoeiuve in the best faked version, and truth always stays in the hidden. Because, as I said, all actors in this, Eastern as well as Western actors, have different motives. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

11-14-14, 05:57 PM	#225
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,660 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	Two truths about secret services always will stay the same: 1. The main part of their work is not focussed on somebody else, but on their own population and manipulating it; 2. The best tool of manipulation is to prevent information and to mix truths with half-truths. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

11-14-14, 05:05 PM	#215
mapuc CINC Pacific Fleet Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Denmark Posts: 20,541 Downloads: 37 Uploads: 0	^ You are right this photo need to be investigated by the best there are in that field of expertise If I know the human psychology correct-there will always be people who claim the photo to be either genuin or false-what ever this investigation will show. Markus

11-14-14, 05:07 PM	#216
Oberon Lucky Jack Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 25,976 Downloads: 61 Uploads: 20	I thought that it was supposed to have been shot down by a Frogfoot? That looks more like a MiG-29 or Su-27.

11-14-14, 05:24 PM	#219
Oberon Lucky Jack Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 25,976 Downloads: 61 Uploads: 20	It's not beyond the realms of possibility, likewise the Frogfoot and Buk proposals. The UAF does have the MiG-29s that Russia shipped back to them from Crimea although they were in pretty poor condition when they were captured. There's also some flying around from the Ukrainian display team and a couple of standard 29s have been shot down by pro-Russian forces. The image quality though, doesn't match up to me, if I'm honest. Other problems are apparently, according to a quick google search: The image is 50km west of the crash site The missile has been reported to have hit MH-17 on the left side of the cockpit, the opposite side to the direction the Aphid is coming in from in this photo The text on the side of 'MH-17' in this picture is in the wrong place. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...edelstaedt.jpg Note in this picture that the text 'malaysia' is above the wing spar, whereas in the satellite image it's forward of the wing spar...and in fact, bares some resemblance to the original 'Boeing' house title, like so: