Huge pro-EU rally grips Ukraine

[ikalugin]

Originally Posted by sailor_X

Ukraine War - Regular Russian Paratroopers Captured • Ukraine News

Cheap Russian pigs, fighting even not for glory, but for money. I have no respect for these scumbags..

Interestingly:
- as far as I could hear it does not say at any point in the video that those are Russian troops.
- you can't quite hear what those people (those on the ground) are saying (I wonder why, especially why the man -resays what they were meant to say-).
- those men (the ones on the ground) have no markings relating them to the Russian VDV troops in any way (no markings, uniforms or uniform elements, no tatoos and so on), only the separatist's markings (Novorosya emblem and the st.George's ribbon).

[ikalugin]

Originally Posted by sailor_X

Russian media says it's false reporting when it is not suitable for Russian people =]

Results of the investigation will never be clear 100% because majority of those clues were destroyed by russian spcial forces and separatists.

So you would prefer to use media (including dubious sources as Youtube and social media) picture as basis for the decision-making rather than the official investigation?

When an aircraft was shot down by the Ukrainian S200 system those clues were found, even though the remains of the aircraft sunk. You could find some basic information here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberi...es_Flight_1812

Originally Posted by ikalugin

Interestingly:
- as far as I could say it does not say at any point in the video that those are Russian troops.
- you can't quite hear what those people (those on the ground) are saying (I wonder why, especially why the man -resays what they were meant to say-).
- those men (the ones on the ground) have no markings relating them to the Russian VDV troops in any way (no markings, uniforms or uniform elements, no tatoos and so on), only the separatist's markings.

Yeah right, we all aware of how assuredly Russia can lie, as if green men ic Crimea also were just separatists. Your nation wears no markings in war. That is pathetic, I suppose even russian prison rules could not tolerate such cowardship =]

[ikalugin]

Originally Posted by sailor_X

Yeah right, we all aware of how assuredly Russia can lie, as if green men ic Crimea also were just separatists. Your nation wears no markings in war. That is pathetic, I suppose even russian prison rules could not tolerate such cowardship =]

So if there are no markings (uniforms, uniform elements, tatoos, VDV specific equipment ect), nor does anyone within the video say that the people on the ground are Russian paratroopers (ie there is no evidence within the video itself to even suggest that), how do you make the conclusion that they are Russian paratroopers?

Originally Posted by ikalugin

So you would prefer to use media (including dubious sources as Youtube and social media) picture as basis for the decision-making rather than the official investigation?

When an aircraft was shot down by the Ukrainian S200 system those clues were found, even though the remains of the aircraft sunk. You could find some basic information here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberi...es_Flight_1812

You're good in hanging noodles over other ppl ears of those who has little knowledge about it. Surely Russias media is working hard to show it in different colours. Keep trying.

[Mr Quatro]

Originally Posted by Oberon

I think we've reached the point where this thread should be closed...continued existence is only going to continue to inspire conflict which was best left in 1991.

of course we should ... this conflict has gone way beyond the initial pro-EU rally the thread is based on.

name the new thread World War III if America gets involved in it

[ikalugin]

Originally Posted by sailor_X

You're good in hanging noodles over other ppl ears of those who has little knowledge about it. Surely Russias media is working hard to show it in different colours. Keep trying.

So do you or do you not think that using media picture (especially from dubious sources) better than the report of the international investigation team?

Should it (hypo-theoretically) find that the MH17 incident was caused not by the Separatists but by the Ukrainian troops (for example an accident similar to the one from the 2001), what would your reaction be then?

Originally Posted by ikalugin

So if there are no markings (uniforms, uniform elements, tatoos, VDV specific equipment ect), nor does anyone within the video say that the people on the ground are Russian paratroopers (ie there is no evidence within the video itself to even suggest that), how do you make the conclusion that they are Russian paratroopers?

Because I was fighting in the Ukraine for one month in Lughansk region, covering the Azov unit from flank positions. I know more than you can imagine. I was lithuanian volunteer there. So save your fairy tales to somebody else =]

[CCIP]

Oh, so that clearly gives you a very unbiased critical position!

[ikalugin]

Originally Posted by sailor_X

Because I was fighting in the Ukraine for one month in Lughansk region, covering the Azov unit from flank positions. I know more than you can imagine. I was lithuanian volunteer there. So save your fairy tales to somebody else =]

So you must have objective proofs then. Would you be so kind as to present them? I would suggest sending it to the International Criminal Court, basic information about it could be found here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interna...Criminal_Court

Both of Russian VDV troops in the area and your participation ofcourse, though sending in the later to the ICC may be unwise.

p.s. as Lithuanian I would assume that it is quite possible that you understand Russian. Why would you post the video, in which there is no evidence that the men on the ground are Russian paratroopers then (that is not even mentioned within the video, where the speaker speaks in Russian)?

Originally Posted by ikalugin

So you must have objective proofs then. Would you be so kind as to present them?

Both of Russian VDV troops in the area and your participation ofcourse.

p.s. as Lithuanian I would assume that it is quite possible that you understand Russian. Why would you post the video, in which there is no evidence that the men on the ground are Russian paratroopers then (that is not even mentioned within the video, where the speaker speaks in Russian)?

... are you dumb or what ? There wount be any proofs for you kid. There are only video footages, about which you think is fake or false, think whatever u want, but I'm telling thinks that I know of. Most of our captured pro-russian fighters in August were ordinary speraratists, but some of them had documents that belonged to russian ordinary army men.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by sailor_X

Would you let your country to be divided in peaces again so easily ? I believe in will to stay in one peace. I'm not supporting scotland to become independant from England, I'm not supporting Catalonia to become seperate country from Spain. Seperation of regions is a no way out in the middle of any country. What it brings is more chaos and disorder. I consider myself a citizen of my government as friendly. It's very common these days to be hostile against governments. I'm just not that type of person. If I was Ukrainian I would go to war and kill those ppl who want to brake my country in peaces. I would never let that happen as far as I'm alive. You can think as far as your philosophical knowledge lets you do this. But this will not change the mind of those who are still in their common sense. You can play with those minds that are sick, telling that separation in any countrty of any region is good to go. Not in my yard pal.

No human is born as a slave, or as a property to somebody else. nobody has to make c,laims for owning somebody else. If the group you live in claims the right to govern another group that does not want to be governed by you and want to stay away form you, it is you being the evil int he world trying to force the to obey your claim for commanding them.

That is becasue I beleive that liberty is the highest good there is. Without freedom, everything else is nothing.

I must not understand why some other people on the Crimean or in Ossetia and Abchasia may want to join especially Russia - I have to respect that they want it, for whatever their motives are, illusions or not.

The Ukraine before never existed as an entity in the borders it was given two decades ago. And it should never have been given these borders, for this enforcment of unnatural borders repeats the mistake that so often was made in the Middle East - to force together what does not belong together and could not live well together, in this case a huge group of people that wants to stay with Russia and a great group of people that at no cost wants to stay with Russia but wants to head towards Europe. None of these two groups has the right to demand the other to follow the other side's demand. So split them. In case of the Crimean people, a clear majority of people there wanted to leave Kiev's rule. In case of the separatist forces, it also is clear. The only question is if whether the territories they claim are inhbaited by a clea rm ajori8ty of people that also want to join Russia - which is in doubt even after the separatist refernedum.

I am against national state. The states are biggest criminals of all, and they have seized a monopoly for crime and illegal rule.

Whether the Scots want to stay or fall away from englöand, is nothign you must be asked for. Nor is it up to you to decide whether the Catalonians are "allowed" to leace Spain - that is completely the issue of those who are concerned: the Catalonians. And so it is with any other regional population.

Deny them that right, and force them into line by force, and you are not better than the government in the former GDR that erected a wall to prevent people fleeing from its tyranny. Or a Stalin. Even a Hitler. Or any dictator that declared to have the right to use force to force people under his rule.

You only can claim that you want to get asked when others want to join with you. Not when they want to leave you and escape from you.

What you declare as your view on all this, in principle is nothing else but the classical imperial position on subjugating other people by force against their will - for the fame of the holy and glorious empire. This is beside relgions the most prominent reason in history for causing war and misery and suffering. There is no moral excuse for it. Never. Only imperial excuses.

[ikalugin]

Originally Posted by sailor_X

... are you dumb or what ? There wount be any proofs for you kid. There are only video footages, about which you think is fake or false, think whatever u want, but I'm telling thinks that I know of. Most of our captured pro-russian fighters in August were ordinary speraratists, but some of them had documents that belonged to russian ordinary army men.

Why not present the objective proofs so that the other (most respected) members of this forum could see them and support your position?

I would welcome all the video footage that you could link (provided it follows the rules of these forums of course), however I still would ask: as to why did you link the video that does not provide any evidence within it of Russian (Armed Forces) participation (no markings, uniforms, uniform elements, tatoos, the subject is not mention by anyone within the video)?

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by sailor_X

Because I was fighting in the Ukraine for one month in Lughansk region, covering the Azov unit from flank positions. I know more than you can imagine. I was lithuanian volunteer there. So save your fairy tales to somebody else =]

Since we're talking about evidence here.

Got some?

Originally Posted by ikalugin

Why not present the objective proofs so that the other (most respected) members of this forum could see them and support your position?

I would welcome all the video footage that you could link (provided it follows the rules of these forums of course), however I still would ask: as to why did you link the video that does not provide any evidence within it of Russian (Armed Forces) participation (no markings, uniforms, uniform elements, tatoos, the subject is not mention by anyone within the video)?

I was not a camera man there, so stop asking me about proofs I will be no capable to show you. All I can say is there were lots of russian troops with no markings, but their documents gave them away who they were, rank, division, blood group etc. I wish I could be the investigator where captured russian soldiers were brought to, prhaps I could tell u more.