Now it's Catalonia's turn

[Skybird]

In a votum labled as "symbolic", the Catalonians voted with a 80+% majority for independence and against Madrid centralised rule over them.

However, only every third Catalonian cared to go to the poll. Which means that roughly only every fourth Catalonian cared for actively expressing his support for independence.

That should settle the row for the moment. However, I think the imperial and arrogant attitude displayed by the central government in Madrid, and ordinary politicians in general, is one that should piss everybody.

To declare it "illegal" that people in a region claim their right to decide whether they still obey to some foreign central goivenrment and accept to get ruled by its leaders thgat behave and act in a more or less unhidden feudal self-underdstanding (not just in Spian, but everywhere); to argue that iut is not the regional population's case whether they stay in a bigge runion or leave, but that the remainign bigger union's population has to grant them the freedom to do so like a master must allow the dog the exit into the garden; to demand the "sovereignty of a nation" to rule higher than the sovereignty of the citizens living in it - all that is outraging, illustrates a claim for possessing people like peasants were owned by feudal landlords in the medieval, and shows what political leaders really think about the people that they demand to own and at whose costs they live by themselves, self-convinced parasites that they are.

The Catalonian referendum may not mean a difference in effect, and still - more than about Catalonians' apparent majority of desinterested people it tells something about the way in which politicians and their institutions meet the people which they claim "to serve". And nthat is not just true in Spain, but in all EU and the West, when considering how hostile foreign politicians and profiteering bureaucrats in the EU reacted to the Catalonian move.

Lesson of it all: we are not allowed to refuse our masters; we all are being seen as kind of property being owned by our leaders; plus the majority claims the right to own the minority, and certainly we are not legitimated to claim our natural right for freedom, liberty, and self-responsibility. Servile, submissive and obedient servants to the masterpoliticians we have to be. That is the role they have forseen for us. The alibi elections we are allowed to, only leave us the choice between the left and the right entry into one and the same prison.

And considering that only every third Catalonian cared to go to the referendum, I doubt that they deserve it any better.

[Catfish]

Originally Posted by Skybird

To declare it "illegal" that people in a region claim their right to decide whether they still obey to some foreign central goivenrment and accept to get ruled by its leaders thgat behave and act in a more or less unhidden feudal self-underdstanding (not just in Spian, but everywhere); to argue that it is not the regional population's case whether they stay in a bigge runion or leave, but that the remainign bigger union's population has to grant them the freedom to do so like a master must allow the dog the exit into the garden; to demand the "sovereignty of a nation" to rule higher than the sovereignty of the citizens living in it - all that is outraging, illustrates a claim for possessing people like peasants were owned by feudal landlords in the medieval, and shows what political leaders really think about the people that they demand to own and at whose costs they live by themselves, self-convinced parasites that they are

Are you also speaking about the Ukraine ?

or about Bavaria

[Catfish]

^ interesting how democracies act, if they are challenged to behave, like it is written in their own statute books

In Germany it is easy, if more than a thousand people protest, you just change the law and all is well.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Catfish

Are you also speaking about the Ukraine ?

or about Bavaria

Of course. What is valid for Peter, must also be valid for Paul.

And I said that before, repeatedly. If the population in a given region does no longer wish to be part of a bigger union, they have any right there is to leave, they do not need the bigger union's permission. Permission by such a union a regional population only needs if it wants to JOIN it.

That'S why I accept the Crimean secession and its joining of Russia, the majority ratios amongst its population are quite clear.

And that's why I asked in the Ukraine thread after the 70 or 80% victory claimed by the separatists, how many people actually went to the polling stations. It seems less obvious at least that the separatists indeed gathered a majority of the provinces' population behind them. But that is the decisive criterion for me whether I accept their break-away from the Ukraine as legal and valid, or not.

Of course I also accept the population in the central and Western provinces to orientate themselves towards Europe, if that is what they want. I never refused them that reight. I only recalled that their move would necessarily trigger reactions from Russia since, both nation's interests were on a head-on confrontation there. That is what the crisis in the Ukraine flamed up over. Forming the Ukraine by the borders in which two different population groups with two such different interests were forced together, lies at the root of it all. The Ukraine never has existed in its post-USSR borders as a sovereign state before, and it never should have been formed in these borders at all. You may see why I argued in favour of a splitting of the Ukraine, therefore: keep apart what does not live well if forced together in the same cage.

That's why I accept the move by the Abchasians and Ossetians to reject Geogian rule over them, and their voluntary (!!) move to join Russia. Moscow did not manipulate them and had not to force them to accept Russian passports by the many many thousands - it was them bringing up that request first.

And that's why I would have accepted the Scotts leaving, or would accept Bavaria splitting away.

And that is why I do not accept the claimed "legality" of any law or constitution ruling that such attempts and desires are "invalid". Such a law is invalid from the moment on it is written, for it defies natural law.

So, you should (and could!) have known my reply in advance! You are German, like me. They celebrate the wall's fall currently. The wall was built to prevent people fleeing the Eastern Republic, over two hundred people were killed by shots at the wall, tho9suands were thrown into prison, and were tortured. Germans should know before anyone else what it means if a state claims the right to prevent its people, its population from leaving, if they want.

And now you can imagine why I am so totally pissed by the GEZ's enforced head tax for the parties' brainwashing TV - no matter whether you own a device to watch it, or not. That is like needing to pay for a book that you never have ordered, and would never order. You still have to pay for it. WT?