Following a fast moving sub with towed array?

[jojotcb10]

Im a total newb to the game and have tons of questions to be honest but I am slowly learning a few things as I go. Ive tried reading as much as I can but its confusing to be honest on a lot of the questions I have. For starters, how do you follow a fast moving sub or contact with towed array sonar? If you are limited to a speed of about 6 knots how are you supposed to keep up or gain any ground? Also I finally just disabled autocrew from the sonar and the screen that makes the torpedos fire. I seem to miss a lot. I will do quick missions a lot of time and its obvious which one is a surface ship and which is a sub contact. By the way I use a US sub of either kind. My problem is that I look at the sonar and I can tell that a contact is a bad sub but I cant narrow down exactly what kind it is. It will list several different choices of subs as I go through the list of what the contact could be but I dont know which one it is. How do I find out more about the contact? Also, I look at the nav screen and sometimes Ill make an educated guess on what kind of sub it is and put it in with high confidence, etc, and after a while it has a firing solution and ill go to the firing screen and pick the contact, flood the tubs, etc, but miss. If the contact was going east, the torpedo seems to fire where it was and then starts a search pattern but never seems to find anything. With autocrew on everything but sonar and the firing station, what do I need to do to find out more about the contact, what do I do to make the shot better, etc? any help would be appreciated.

[ikalugin]

I think what you should do is to split your mode of operation into two parts:
- sprint. This is where you go under the layer (if possible) and go fast to whatever place you want to.
- listen. This is where you slow down and get that towed array going.

Those tactics appear to work fairly well against the surface groups, however the general rule of the game is to position yourself in front of the enemy, while having him at your side, ie it is simmilar to "crossing the T" in the good old Ships of the Line days.

[jojotcb10]

thanks for the reply. I actually havent played against any surface ships yet, I have just been doing sub vs sub quick missions and I am trying to play the red storm campaign but cant quite figure out how to play properly with the ship. I just cant seem to figure out where to place the buoys, what kind to use, and how to read them. I am finally understanding how to read the sonar on the sub but the buoys are a whole different thing. I cant seem to find a good tutorial on how to play with the ship. I just want to use autocrew on most of the things if possible and use the helo to deploy the buoys, read them, and drop torpedos on teh subs but I cant quite figure out how to do it. If I do a quick mission the other ship always kills the sub before I even know what happened. Also if you are using a towed array as a sub, and get shot at by a torpedo, what do you do? Pulling it in will take quite a while so do you just try to make a hard turn and dive until its in before picking up the speed big time? I so far have been making a decent amount of kills in the quick missions now on hard as a sub but the enemy subs have never shot at me for whatever reason. In the red storm campaign I played a level where I had my one and only true sub vs sub kill. It was actually a fun mission that I still havent finished but I was shallow because of a radio transmission when I had an airplane or something drop 2 torpedos on me and I dove under the layer and lost them. I then started tracking a sub that disappeared on me suddenly so I guessed he went above the layer and I was correct as I started tracking him again. I fired a shot on him and killed him for what I consider my one and only true mission kill so I felt proud of that one at least. These quick mission subs are kind of like fish in a barrel but as I am still learning its good practice I guess since I still miss a lot of shots. What is the max distance of the US torpedo? If the sub is 10 NM away and I feel like I have a good shot can I shoot from there? How many yards would I set the torpedo for? I am guessing the yardage you put in is before it starts to turn and do its snake like tracking pattern? I am SLOWLY but surely starting to understand this sub stuff and I can see it will be a blast once I really understand it. The ship I am just clueless on though after many many tries.

[jojotcb10]

I have been playing silent hunter 4 quite a bit so I have a decent understanding of how to set up for a shot on surface ships at least as far as setting up for a T like shot and getting ahead of the enemy surface ships. I havent had a chance to practice anything with the modern subs yet so we will see how that goes. Do I use the same mark torpedos against the surface ships or do I use something else? I am not quite sure what the other stuff is. I know I have missiles on board too, I am not quite sure what they are called or if they can be used against surface ships or just land targets which is also something I havent got to try yet. There are just so many different things to learn...

[Pisces]

Why are you limited to a speed of 6 knots? If you are going that slow, and he is faster and moving away then it is simply impossible to close on him. At best you can match his course to reduce the relative motion, and postpone the moment you are loosing him on sensors. Hopefully he is coming towards you, then you can set a course to get in front of his path, but let him do the closing. If not then you must question your limitations and find ways to get a better tactical position.

If he is going fast, even if he is a sub, then his sensor sensitivity is reduced by his own noise. So you can afford to go a bit faster than you were previously. But how much is a tricky thing to gamble on. A balance of bravery and beware. Try to use depth to get higher cavitation speeds, and make use of how the soundlayer bends your sound away from him. The sprint and listen/drift technique ikalugin describes helps to get a bit higher average speed and make his TMA efforts more difficult (if he can hear you). But it is easy to over do it and get torpedoes fired at you if you are too cocky. Don't expect to be invisible under the layer.

The seabed contours can also help. Contrary to for example the SH3 andSH4 (don't know about SH5) the bottom actually stops the sound (can also reflect it further). You can hide behind a ridge or a seamount if it is steep enough. But this limits the paths you can choose, so might not be helpful.

If you want to identify which kind of sub or even surface ship it is you need to use the narrowband sonar with the towed, hull and bow sonar. Get a tracker assigned from each of them on it. (but it doesn't have to be at the same time) Each is sensitive in respectively low, middle and higher frequency. And each class emits a set of 5 frequencies that make it somewhat unique.To be able to detect the higher frequencies (which allow to narrow down to a specific class) it comes down to being slow/silent (the hull array is particularly sensitive to own speed noise) and being close enough. Also the number of blade-lines in the demon screen can help to narrow down the class. But you don't get all the blade-lines at far away range. You'll get more when you get closer or his signal is stronger. So the best identification is usually done when closer.

[Pisces]

Originally Posted by jojotcb10

I have been playing silent hunter 4 quite a bit so I have a decent understanding of how to set up for a shot on surface ships at least as far as setting up for a T like shot and getting ahead of the enemy surface ships. I havent had a chance to practice anything with the modern subs yet so we will see how that goes. Do I use the same mark torpedos against the surface ships or do I use something else? I am not quite sure what the other stuff is. I know I have missiles on board too, I am not quite sure what they are called or if they can be used against surface ships or just land targets which is also something I havent got to try yet. There are just so many different things to learn...

SH4 is different in the sense that these torpedoes have some sort of guidance in it's head. They can steer themselves to the target if it detects it ('something' really). The T-shot isn't so neccesary as torpedoes can also find it's way in a tail chase. But to get the torpedo to lock a T-setup is desirable to get a good active sensor return when it enables. It's better to direct the torpedo with a good sense of where the target is and will be (accurate TMA on course, speed and position) rather then just send the torpedo in it's direction and let it search it on it's own. But yeah, that takes experience. (which I also lack sometimes) If I don't exactly know how far away a target is (like a snapshot launch), I try to make my fired torpedoes 'ride on the bearing'. Steering the torpedoes along the current bearing of the Sierra contact it is supposed to hit. A decoy might spoof it but you can redirect the torpedo after it has locked on something.

For the US subs you only have one type torpedo, the Mk 48 ADCAP. That one is good for surface as well as subs. The range you should fire a target at depends on many tactical factors. But there is the concept of no-escape range that can be decisive. The torpedoes have a maximum speed it can go at (ADCAP 55 kts), and a maximum distance it can travel (27 nm according to the stock manual). From that you can calculate the endurance of the torpedo, the time it takes until it dies from exhaustion: 27nm/55 kts= 0.49 hours, or 29.5 minutes. Before that time the target would need to have been hit, so the torpedo must catch up to it. Assuming the target immediately detects the torpedo launch and tries to evade away at max speed you can figure out the relative speed between them. Like say an Alfa has a max speed of 35 knots (I'm guessing,don't know for sure, could be different) and turns directly away. So the ADCAP can overtake the Alfa by 20 knots. (55-35 kts) Considering the time until it dies out, the ADCAP can gain 20 kts * 0.49 hours= 10 nm on this (Alfa) target. If you fire when the Alfa is beyond that range then you cannot be sure that the ADCAP has the endurance to hit the target. You have much better odds when it is closer. Caveat in all this is that this simple calculation assumes the target and torpedo can turn on a dime when it detects the torpedo launch. Also the target takes time to accelerate to top speed, and the torpedo can do so much quicker. So there is a margin of variance in this. And of course the torpedo might be spoofed by a decoy along the way.

This no-escape range is different for each torpedo-target combination. As it depends on the maximum speeds of each and torpedo max travel distance. So a generic no escape range cannot be given. It depends on the target.

Missiles are much quicker than torpedoes, but fly through the air. And surface warships likely have airdefenses around so they are likely shot down before they reach their target. The intercept missiles are much quicker than the Tomahawks and Harpoons. Also, you are a sitting duck for helos when you are trying to launch them. ... with a launch plume hovering above your location. Say bye bye to stealth. Doing this requires clever waypoint planning and luck.

I personally think the playable surface warship (FFG-7 O.H. Perry) is a bit too complex to learn in the beginning. Operating it requires knowledge of too many systems at the same time. The subs have a much less of a learning curve. But I must admit, I am a bit biased having played Subcommand before DW, where there were only subs in the game. I suggest you focus on subs first.

If you want to try out how the buoys work then I think the Helo is an easy starter unit. But flying it around can be difficult in itself. I usually leave it on autopilot and move it around from the map. It is easy to ditch it in the sea if you don't watch out with the transitions in speed and altitude.

The quick missions are far too quick imho. They are arcade-ish in the sense that you are too close to the other units and are often immediately detected. You miss the prelude setup period where you start to detect them from long range. You are thrown into the mix, often detected from the start. Also consider that when you hear of a torpedo launch detection that you are not necessarily the one that is aimed at. It might be one of the other guys in the area. Look for the torpedo signal in the sonar suite, and observe the bearing drift of it. If it moves quickly then you can calm down (but be alert). It is not comming to you. If it stays steady on a bearing degree then it is (almost certainly) heading for you, ... or something along your immediate direction. Time to get out of dodge ASAP! If you have to loose the TA because you cannot reel it in, then so be it. The object of the game is to stay alive.

[jojotcb10]

thanks for the help, i spent basically all day figuring this sub stuff out or at least trying to and definitely had some success. I sunk my first surface ship which happened to be the russian carrier in the red storm campaign. I launched 4 torpedos at that sucker, reloaded fast and launched another 4 and sank her before diving to a thousand feet and making some sharp turns to evade the angry russians. I was pretty happy with myself. I think i thought 6 was my limit because im used to silent hunter with that being the limit to how fast you can go before you gotta pull things in. I gotta remember I have newer tech than ww2 stuff now. That carrier took a few tries, the anti ship missiles definitely didnt work as they shot them all down then sinking me. My second time I hit it with 4 torpedos than tried to watch in scope to see my first ship sink and I ended up getting sunk and the carrier was only damaged. Finally I fired my 8 torpedos and just got out of dodge and watched the explosion from the torpedos point of view. Do the ships ever break up or anything when you watch them like that? There really wasnt any damage done to the carrier at all from the 8 torpedos from that view before she sank. Do I need to view a ship through the periscope to see the actual damage happen? Right now I am at the level where I get to launch all the tomahawks. I havent shot at a surface target yet so this should be fun. I am really enjoying the game, looking forward to trying some new missions and campaigns. I really enjoy the sub vs sub detecting and fighting. Is there another good campaign or some missions out there that anyone recommends?

[Aktungbby]

jojotcb10!

[Pisces]

Originally Posted by jojotcb10

thanks for the help, i spent basically all day figuring this sub stuff out or at least trying to and definitely had some success. I sunk my first surface ship which happened to be the russian carrier in the red storm campaign. I launched 4 torpedos at that sucker, reloaded fast and launched another 4 and sank her before diving to a thousand feet and making some sharp turns to evade the angry russians. I was pretty happy with myself. I think i thought 6 was my limit because im used to silent hunter with that being the limit to how fast you can go before you gotta pull things in. I gotta remember I have newer tech than ww2 stuff now.

6 knots is around the speed at which masts sticking up tend to get broken. But towed arrays and the wire antenna can take much more drag. The breaking point for them is around or higher than 20 knots. You should get a warning from the chief of the boat/watch (or whatever his function is) that you risk damaging them at higher speeds. Make sure you slowly approach these speeds if you want to heed those warning.

...Do the ships ever break up or anything when you watch them like that? There really wasnt any damage done to the carrier at all from the 8 torpedos from that view before she sank. Do I need to view a ship through the periscope to see the actual damage happen? ...

No, the Silenthunter series is much better in the visual department. This game/simulator is more of a mind game. As you are mostly below the surface (in a sub), or dealing with over the horizon contacts, you can't directly look at things. The focus of the game is to develop a mental picture of the battlefield using the sensors, and do what must be done to fulfil the mission goals. At best the unit is shown in a very bent up shape once it got hit by torpedoes. It made me wonder if this was actually physically possible to such large structures. Oh well. But it really depends on how you have the navmap filters set up. If "Show Truth" is OFF (which is default) then the 3d view that you see is just the assumption of what your classification was. If you didn't make a classification of a specific class then it shows just a generic (wireframe) model. What you see in the 3d view may not actually be so. What you thought might have been an Akula, could be a silent civilian craft, or a UK sub that has similar frequency lines. Infact, if your TMA is wrong then there might not even be anything there. This is the 'fog of war' you have to deal with in this simulator.

Looking through the periscope in the subs, through the windows or on the observation deck of the frigate, Helo and Orion aircraft, the cameras of various units and high frequency sonar is of course the real situation. So yeah, if you want to be sure of your TMA you must confirm it with those 'sensors' and be up close and personal. But in most cases the narrowband can sufficiently narrow things down to a class. If you just want to confirm what is happening because you are learning this stuff then toggling the Show Truth layer setting is best. But be careful, it can become a spoiling habbit. And once shown, it cannot be unseen.

Right now I am at the level where I get to launch all the tomahawks. I havent shot at a surface target yet so this should be fun. I am really enjoying the game, looking forward to trying some new missions and campaigns. I really enjoy the sub vs sub detecting and fighting. Is there another good campaign or some missions out there that anyone recommends?

I don't have suggestions on the top of my head. It's been a while since I played them. Except maybe for Molonlabe's ASW tutorial with the 688i. You'll find a bunch of mission scenarios, campaigns and information guides and mods on Subguru's site:

http://subguru.com