Auschwitz guard charged

Wolferz · 09-16-14, 11:17 AM

I would think that just carrying the memories of that place and time would be punishment enough. Charging him with a count of murder for each and every soul taken by his peers is way over the top. I doubt if he was a supporter of the Nazi regime. Just another unfortunate German citizen who was forced into the military at gunpoint. Now if he joined of his own free will, then he shouldn't be charged with anything more than aiding and abetting. Not 300 million counts of murder. The architects of the holocaust were tried and hung long ago. It's time to leave it all in the past.

Eichhörnchen · 09-16-14, 12:02 PM

I agree with all of that.

Schroeder · 09-16-14, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tribesman

He volunteered of his own free will, he didn't volunteer for the army he volunteered for the SS. That required party membership.

Pretty much everything required party membership.
My great grandfather who would normally not have been drafted because of his age and the number of children he had was given a choice: Join the party or get drafted into the army including a vacation to Russia.... I wouldn't blame anybody to chose to join the party with these odds and stay at home with his family. He chose Russia....

Von Tonner · 09-16-14, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tribesman

He volunteered of his own free will, he didn't volunteer for the army he volunteered for the SS. That required party membership.

Tribesman makes a good point there. If ALL personnel assigned to the death camps (Auschwitz been one of them) were members of the Nazi party then yes, I would agree, they knew fully well what that they had ascribed to. So it does not therefore matter whether he himself did anything that would be defined as a war crime ... the charge would be he OF HIS OWN FREE WILL subscribed and supported a philosophy/ideology that was in all accounts heinous.

That is, if he was a Nazi. And not knowing all the facts, logic would lead me to believe that the Nazi's would NOT employ ordinary German conscripts to the camps.

And yes, on reconsideration, if he was a Nazi, and a guard at the camp....throw the book at him.

Eichhörnchen · 09-16-14, 01:26 PM

Plenty of "low grade" personnel levied from captured territories and often not even European, were dragooned into the SS and given jobs like this. They were not deemed useful as fighting troops by the Nazis so were used for other, often particularly unpleasant, tasks.

If they were all card-carrying members of the Party then it's likely this just came with the uniform...

Eichhörnchen · 09-16-14, 02:01 PM

Fair comment, I didn't know that

Wolferz · 09-16-14, 02:14 PM

Leveling these charges on this guy seems excessive. Especially when you consider that every German citizen at that time knew what was going on and did little or nothing to curb it. If we all wished to be anal about it, the general population of 1940's Germany could be named as accessories to murder. Each and every one of them.
Have they all paid penance?
I think they have.

Aktungbby · 09-16-14, 02:35 PM

HE's 93 years old..."Unlike most of the others, Groening has openly talked about his time as a guard and says while he witnessed horrific atrocities, he didn't commit any crimes himself." Sounds like a well considered retirement plan to me-ie: "let the state pay for his geriatric costs in a minimum-security institution"?? I doubt his military pen$ion is worth mentioning

BrucePartington · 09-16-14, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolferz

Leveling these charges on this guy seems excessive. Especially when you consider that every German citizen at that time knew what was going on and did little or nothing to curb it. If we all wished to be anal about it, the general population of 1940's Germany could be named as accessories to murder. Each and every one of them.
Have they all paid penance?
I think they have.

Exactly what I think. The German people endured terror as the Nazi party rose to power. To openly oppose it or even speak against it would earn you a guided tour to the Gestapo catacombs. Finally, an entire nation was levelled as its population was decimated to the limit.
IMHO, the German people at large paid for sins they did not commit, and then paid for it again.

Let's not forget the White Rose movement http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Rose .
Also, please read about Kurt Gerstein, an SS officer who tried to pass information to the allies about the concentration camps: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_Gerstein

Having said that, I agree all those who activelly pursued to commit genocide should be brought to justice and punished accordingly.

Above all, let's try not to repeat History.

Wolferz · 09-16-14, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tribesman

Are you ready and willing to make that case against the 20 families bringing the charges?

I would have only one question for them...

"Will it restore anyone to living status again?"

"Revenge is a dish best served cold"
Old Klingon proverb

BrucePartington · 09-16-14, 05:57 PM

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ng-moment.html

""Groening said memories of the camp occupied his 'every waking moment' - adding: 'I will never be free of them'.

'One time a drunken SS man discovered a crying baby on the platform, he said. 'He grabbed the waif by its legs and smashed its head against the side of a truck. My blood froze when I saw it.
'When I saw this I went to my superior officers and made an application for a transfer to the front, to anywhere. But he refused. Down the years I have heard the cries of the dead in my dreams and in every waking moment. I will never be free of them.
'It was becoming harder and harder to suppress everything I saw. On one night in January 1943 I saw for the first time how the Jews were actually gassed. It was in a half-built farmyard near to the Auschwitz-Birkenau camp. A gas chamber was built there. We were searching the wood nearby for prisoners who had escaped. (...)

'I again made an application for a transfer and at the end of October 1944 I was shipped to the Belgian Ardennes where I served with a fighting unit until capture.'
Since the war, Groening admitted he has been driven back to Auschwitz because of his 'shame'.""

ikalugin · 09-16-14, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolferz

I would think that just carrying the memories of that place and time would be punishment enough. Charging him with a count of murder for each and every soul taken by his peers is way over the top. I doubt if he was a supporter of the Nazi regime. Just another unfortunate German citizen who was forced into the military at gunpoint. Now if he joined of his own free will, then he shouldn't be charged with anything more than aiding and abetting. Not 300 million counts of murder. The architects of the holocaust were tried and hung long ago. It's time to leave it all in the past.

I appologize for correcting you, but as far as I know less than 300 millions people were murdered in that specific death camp.

Platapus · 09-16-14, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tribesman

Tell that to the 20 co-plaintiffs who are pursuing justice.

Justice or revenge?

Do the plaintiffs even know the difference after all these years?

BrucePartington · 09-16-14, 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tribesman

He complained about the individual excesses, the lax discipline, not the mass murder which he saw as legitimate.

His interview in the german media 2005
What did you think when you found out that Jews were being gassed in Auschwitz?
"That it was a tool of waging war. A war with advanced methods."
But you weren't in the war. You were in a factory where systematic murder was being committed.
"If you are convinced that the destruction of Judaism is necessary, then it no longer matters how the killing takes place. As early as 1939, Hitler said in speech that if the Jews were to force a new war on the Germans, it would mean the end of Judaism in Europe."

Well, all this is speculation on our part. None of us is in acquaintance with the full facts. It's just opinion. We'll have to wait for a court deliberation, and hopefully, a public disclosure of said full facts. Until then we'll have to refrain our thirst for blood.

Oberon · 09-17-14, 12:37 AM

Legally I believe that they have a case, he was an accessory to the events at Auschwitz, whether or not he was complicit in them is up to the jury to determine. He has expressed regret and has spoken out against Holocaust denial, those are points in his favour, he might get a light custodial sentence, although at his age, any custodial sentence is probably equivalent to life, perhaps he'll get house imprisonment, or something fairly lenient.
Should he be prosecuted? He is 92, going on 93...it's hard for me to understand what these families will achieve through the prosecution, because I have never been in such a situation. They are more fortunate than their contemparies in Russia, I'm not aware of many instances of people prosecuting gulag members in Russia, although I'm sure it has happened, but certainly not to the scale that occurred post-WWII in Germany and across the world. Romania seems to be moving in that direction, which is good, but I'm not so sure about the other former Soviet countries. Perhaps ikalugin can shed some light on the subject?
And I wonder if Russia will pay any reparations to Ukraine for the Holodomor?

I guess, in a way, the families involved in this case are the lucky ones, they can prosecute, they can bring a case forward...there are hundreds of thousands...if not millions...who cannot.

09-16-14, 11:17 AM	#1
Wolferz Navy Seal Join Date: May 2007 Location: On a mighty quest for the Stick of Truth Posts: 5,963 Downloads: 52 Uploads: 0	I would think that just carrying the memories of that place and time would be punishment enough. Charging him with a count of murder for each and every soul taken by his peers is way over the top. I doubt if he was a supporter of the Nazi regime. Just another unfortunate German citizen who was forced into the military at gunpoint. Now if he joined of his own free will, then he shouldn't be charged with anything more than aiding and abetting. Not 300 million counts of murder. The architects of the holocaust were tried and hung long ago. It's time to leave it all in the past. __________________ Tomorrow never comes

09-16-14, 02:14 PM	#7
Wolferz Navy Seal Join Date: May 2007 Location: On a mighty quest for the Stick of Truth Posts: 5,963 Downloads: 52 Uploads: 0	To err is human and justice is blind... Leveling these charges on this guy seems excessive. Especially when you consider that every German citizen at that time knew what was going on and did little or nothing to curb it. If we all wished to be anal about it, the general population of 1940's Germany could be named as accessories to murder. Each and every one of them. Have they all paid penance? I think they have. __________________ Tomorrow never comes

09-16-14, 02:35 PM	#8
Aktungbby Gefallen Engel U-666 Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: On a tilted, overheated, overpopulated spinning mudball on Collision course with Andromeda Galaxy Posts: 30,051 Downloads: 24 Uploads: 0	HE's 93 years old..."Unlike most of the others, Groening has openly talked about his time as a guard and says while he witnessed horrific atrocities, he didn't commit any crimes himself." Sounds like a well considered retirement plan to me-ie: "let the state pay for his geriatric costs in a minimum-security institution"?? I doubt his military pen$ion is worth mentioning __________________ "Only two things are infinite; The Universe and human squirrelyness?!!

09-16-14, 05:57 PM	#11
BrucePartington XO Join Date: May 2013 Location: KM AM99 Posts: 405 Downloads: 33 Uploads: 0	http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ng-moment.html ""Groening said memories of the camp occupied his 'every waking moment' - adding: 'I will never be free of them'. 'One time a drunken SS man discovered a crying baby on the platform, he said. 'He grabbed the waif by its legs and smashed its head against the side of a truck. My blood froze when I saw it. 'When I saw this I went to my superior officers and made an application for a transfer to the front, to anywhere. But he refused. Down the years I have heard the cries of the dead in my dreams and in every waking moment. I will never be free of them. 'It was becoming harder and harder to suppress everything I saw. On one night in January 1943 I saw for the first time how the Jews were actually gassed. It was in a half-built farmyard near to the Auschwitz-Birkenau camp. A gas chamber was built there. We were searching the wood nearby for prisoners who had escaped. (...) 'I again made an application for a transfer and at the end of October 1944 I was shipped to the Belgian Ardennes where I served with a fighting unit until capture.' Since the war, Groening admitted he has been driven back to Auschwitz because of his 'shame'."" __________________ "The bureaucracy is expanding, to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy." - Leonard Nimoy

09-16-14, 12:02 PM	#2
Eichhörnchen Starte das Auto Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: The Fens Posts: 17,447 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	I agree with all of that.

09-16-14, 01:26 PM	#5
Eichhörnchen Starte das Auto Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: The Fens Posts: 17,447 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	Plenty of "low grade" personnel levied from captured territories and often not even European, were dragooned into the SS and given jobs like this. They were not deemed useful as fighting troops by the Nazis so were used for other, often particularly unpleasant, tasks. If they were all card-carrying members of the Party then it's likely this just came with the uniform...

09-16-14, 02:01 PM	#6
Eichhörnchen Starte das Auto Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: The Fens Posts: 17,447 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	Fair comment, I didn't know that

09-17-14, 12:37 AM	#15
Oberon Lucky Jack Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 25,976 Downloads: 61 Uploads: 20	Legally I believe that they have a case, he was an accessory to the events at Auschwitz, whether or not he was complicit in them is up to the jury to determine. He has expressed regret and has spoken out against Holocaust denial, those are points in his favour, he might get a light custodial sentence, although at his age, any custodial sentence is probably equivalent to life, perhaps he'll get house imprisonment, or something fairly lenient. Should he be prosecuted? He is 92, going on 93...it's hard for me to understand what these families will achieve through the prosecution, because I have never been in such a situation. They are more fortunate than their contemparies in Russia, I'm not aware of many instances of people prosecuting gulag members in Russia, although I'm sure it has happened, but certainly not to the scale that occurred post-WWII in Germany and across the world. Romania seems to be moving in that direction, which is good, but I'm not so sure about the other former Soviet countries. Perhaps ikalugin can shed some light on the subject? And I wonder if Russia will pay any reparations to Ukraine for the Holodomor? I guess, in a way, the families involved in this case are the lucky ones, they can prosecute, they can bring a case forward...there are hundreds of thousands...if not millions...who cannot.