Huge pro-EU rally grips Ukraine - Page 87

TarJak · 08-28-14, 08:32 AM

Unsurprisingly Poreshenko says it is Russian operated: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-08-2...nvaded/5704122

Bilge_Rat · 08-28-14, 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oberon

T-72BM allegedly spotted in Ukraine.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28961080

Yes, that is one of the "smoking guns", the appearance of T-72Bs in Ukraine is supposed to be undeniable proof that Russians are there and/or supplying the Rebels since Ukraine does not have T-72Bs...

...problem is:

Flamebatter90 · 08-28-14, 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

Yes, that is one of the "smoking guns", the appearance of T-72Bs in Ukraine is supposed to be undeniable proof that Russians are there and/or supplying the Rebels since Ukraine does not have T-72Bs...

...problem is:

Ukraine does have T-72Bs, what Ukraine does not have is T-72BM. That's the "smoking gun".

Oberon · 08-28-14, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

Yes, that is one of the "smoking guns", the appearance of T-72Bs in Ukraine is supposed to be undeniable proof that Russians are there and/or supplying the Rebels since Ukraine does not have T-72Bs...

...problem is:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flamebatter90

Ukraine does have T-72Bs, what Ukraine does not have is T-72BM. That's the "smoking gun".

Indeed, as Flamebatter has correctly pointed out, the two tanks in these pictures are not the same. The top one is a T-72BM, the bottom is a T-72B. Have a look at those slabs on the armour, the Explosive Reactive Armour, you'll note that the B seen in the lower picture has the older Kontakt-5 on it (The BBC screwed up in that article, mixing their ERAs up) whereas the tank in the upper picture has what looks like Relikt on it, like this tank here:

And only the T-72BM has Relikt, and only the Russian army operates the T-72BM.

Of course, the other question that should be asked is was the footage actually taken in the Ukraine?
However, when you add that to the latest tidbit from SHAPE:

I think we're getting to the point now where we can no longer deny that Russian forces are deployed in some manner or form inside Eastern Ukraine, although many (including Moscow) are likely to try.

It's most likely that these forces will be explained away as 'volunteers', like the Flying Tigers, if they are explained at all.

HunterICX · 08-28-14, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oberon

Indeed, as Flamebatter has correctly pointed out, the two tanks in these pictures are not the same. The top one is a T-72BM, the bottom is a T-72B. Have a look at those slabs on the armour, the Explosive Reactive Armour, you'll note that the B seen in the lower picture has the older Kontakt-5 on it (The BBC screwed up in that article, mixing their ERAs up) whereas the tank in the upper picture has what looks like Relikt on it, like this tank here:

I don't think the BBC mixed anything up, 2nd Generation of Kontakt 5 is V-shaped which can be found on BM and other variants of the T-72
http://fofanov.armor.kiev.ua/Tanks/EQP/kontakt5.html

mapuc · 08-28-14, 12:42 PM

Yesterday I had hope there could be peace after all, today I have very bad feelings about the outcome

Markus

Oberon · 08-28-14, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HunterICX

I don't think the BBC mixed anything up, 2nd Generation of Kontakt 5 is V-shaped which can be found on BM and other variants of the T-72
http://fofanov.armor.kiev.ua/Tanks/EQP/kontakt5.html

Hmmm, good point...

*googles*

Wait a minute, bloody hell, the Beeb aren't getting them mixed up, I am, the T-72B2 has Relikt, but the obr.1989g (the BM2) has Kontakt-5.

Do you think these chaps have mixed up a T-84 for a T-72?

Or is this a 72E?

Oberon · 08-28-14, 01:26 PM

Here's a pic of the 72BM (aka the obr.1989g)

And here is the tank in the video:

Goddamnit Russia...I love the T-72 but why are there so many bloody versions of it?!

August · 08-28-14, 02:31 PM

Reactive armor isn't the only difference.
'
Notice the Lip along the top bow of the T72M

whereas the "problem is" picture below has a smooth bow

There are also differences in the TC hatch shape and the shape of the front fenders.

Mr Quatro · 08-28-14, 02:44 PM

What you can't see inside those tanks coming over the border from Russia are actually the much needed relief supplies they unloaded from the, covered in white, trucks the Red Cross was trying to help get into the Ukraine and were denied proper access ...

all they want to do is get these poor pro Russian peoples some food and generators and medical supplies.

as soon as the tanks are unloaded they will return to mother land

Jimbuna · 08-28-14, 03:27 PM

I'd like to see more photos from satellites etc. posted all over the world media and then the UN, the west, the US or everyone even can confront Putin publicly with definitive proof.

I'm not suggesting it would have any effect on Putin but it would show once and for all how he is lying.

Skybird · 08-28-14, 04:56 PM

Of course he is lying, and he was lying all the time. What did you expect all the time? Lying is part of the strategy, and the strategy is to influence Western public opinion - by conditioning it.

You have to give it to him, he is playing it very clever. Many smoke screens, from claims about troop incursions, rumours about volunteers, little green men, to convoys with mysterious white trucks. Every time there is a healdine. And every time the awareness of the public takes slightly more easily note of it, is more used to it, and slightly less interested.

As a former psychologist I can nothing but aplaude the psychological cleverness of this operation.

That is old fashoned KGB destabilizing methods - and obviously it is extremely effective. The KGB knew why they rated the impact of psychological ops more important than any other major intelligence agency, maybe with the exception of the CIA, and I think in the old days even the CIA could learn some tricks from it.

What the Russians are now doing is establishing a land corridor to the Crimean, which they desperately need over the next years before any alternative logistical supply routes over to-be-build streets and bridges or ferry lines could be completed. Also, the goal may be to establish supply lines via reliably controlled land corridors to Moldavia/Transnistria.

I cannot help it, but how Putin succeedes in making Western oh so clever politicians look like stupid schoolboys and chases them around to his liking, makes me grinning over the event taken for itself. I am sure he read Machiavelli carefully. The cause can be debated, but the execution, even where it took improvisations, is really nice.

As I said, old-fashioned KGB operations school.

What should Europe do? NOT intervening in the Ukraine, not sendign forces, not sending military goods. The Ukraine is a failed political experiment, and an infinite black hole to throw oney into that we do not really have (all nations de facto live in a status of delayed filing of insolvency). The Ukraine has nothing that is of interest for us, is just another wide open mouth that wants to get fed like there already are so many others in the EU. But NATO should massively beef up the defence capacities in NATO's Eastern borderstates. And by that I do not mean any acts meant as political signals only, but very robust and solid military measures. That would break several treaties of NATO with Russia over the East-enlargement of NATO in the last decade and the demilitarised areas there that Russia was promised, but NATO has not been shy to break other promises to the Russians before, and the current crisis shows that the rules of the game have changed anyway, and irreversibly. Sticking unilaterally to the old rules, means to take huge risks. While reinforcing NATO capacities in the East, also takes risks.

Welcome to the end of the policy of détente. Live with it. Or get chased around by Russia next time - once again.

Oberon · 08-28-14, 06:14 PM

http://www.jedsite.info/tanks-tango/...2bm/t72bm.html

http://www.jedsite.info/tanks-tango/...72-series.html

TarJak · 08-28-14, 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

I'd like to see more photos from satellites etc. posted all over the world media and then the UN, the west, the US or everyone even can confront Putin publicly with definitive proof.

I'm not suggesting it would have any effect on Putin but it would show once and for all how he is lying.

You mean like these ones? http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-08-2...kraine/5704550

ikalugin · 08-28-14, 11:16 PM

Declaimer - sadly I did not read the previous part of the thread.

It is not difinitive, as Ukranian armed forces have Msta-S as well (and on the immagery we do not see something that would prove Russian participation, such as numers larger than those in Ukranian inventory).

A simpler way would be to find a rare and obscure system, such as Nona-B and providing the photos where Separatists field more guns than there were in Ukranian inventory (ie more than 2 I think).

As to the T72B mods - Ukraine is known to produce many advanced versions of the T72B for export. At the same time the so called Counter Terrorism Operation Forces are well known to mobilise the equipment of varios defense industries. Thus it is possible that the tank appeared that way and deeper investigation is reqired.

08-28-14, 02:31 PM	#1299
August Wayfaring Stranger Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 23,244 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Reactive armor isn't the only difference. ' Notice the Lip along the top bow of the T72M whereas the "problem is" picture below has a smooth bow There are also differences in the TC hatch shape and the shape of the front fenders. __________________ Flanked by life and the funeral pyre. Putting on a show for you to see.

08-28-14, 03:27 PM	#1301
Jimbuna Chief of the Boat Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 250 metres below the surface Posts: 191,203 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 13	I'd like to see more photos from satellites etc. posted all over the world media and then the UN, the west, the US or everyone even can confront Putin publicly with definitive proof. I'm not suggesting it would have any effect on Putin but it would show once and for all how he is lying. __________________ Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something. Oh my God, not again!!

08-28-14, 04:56 PM	#1302
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,752 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	Of course he is lying, and he was lying all the time. What did you expect all the time? Lying is part of the strategy, and the strategy is to influence Western public opinion - by conditioning it. You have to give it to him, he is playing it very clever. Many smoke screens, from claims about troop incursions, rumours about volunteers, little green men, to convoys with mysterious white trucks. Every time there is a healdine. And every time the awareness of the public takes slightly more easily note of it, is more used to it, and slightly less interested. As a former psychologist I can nothing but aplaude the psychological cleverness of this operation. That is old fashoned KGB destabilizing methods - and obviously it is extremely effective. The KGB knew why they rated the impact of psychological ops more important than any other major intelligence agency, maybe with the exception of the CIA, and I think in the old days even the CIA could learn some tricks from it. What the Russians are now doing is establishing a land corridor to the Crimean, which they desperately need over the next years before any alternative logistical supply routes over to-be-build streets and bridges or ferry lines could be completed. Also, the goal may be to establish supply lines via reliably controlled land corridors to Moldavia/Transnistria. I cannot help it, but how Putin succeedes in making Western oh so clever politicians look like stupid schoolboys and chases them around to his liking, makes me grinning over the event taken for itself. I am sure he read Machiavelli carefully. The cause can be debated, but the execution, even where it took improvisations, is really nice. As I said, old-fashioned KGB operations school. What should Europe do? NOT intervening in the Ukraine, not sendign forces, not sending military goods. The Ukraine is a failed political experiment, and an infinite black hole to throw oney into that we do not really have (all nations de facto live in a status of delayed filing of insolvency). The Ukraine has nothing that is of interest for us, is just another wide open mouth that wants to get fed like there already are so many others in the EU. But NATO should massively beef up the defence capacities in NATO's Eastern borderstates. And by that I do not mean any acts meant as political signals only, but very robust and solid military measures. That would break several treaties of NATO with Russia over the East-enlargement of NATO in the last decade and the demilitarised areas there that Russia was promised, but NATO has not been shy to break other promises to the Russians before, and the current crisis shows that the rules of the game have changed anyway, and irreversibly. Sticking unilaterally to the old rules, means to take huge risks. While reinforcing NATO capacities in the East, also takes risks. Welcome to the end of the policy of détente. Live with it. Or get chased around by Russia next time - once again. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

08-28-14, 08:32 AM	#1291
TarJak Fleet Admiral Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 17,052 Downloads: 150 Uploads: 8	Unsurprisingly Poreshenko says it is Russian operated: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-08-2...nvaded/5704122

08-28-14, 12:42 PM	#1296
mapuc CINC Pacific Fleet Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Denmark Posts: 20,598 Downloads: 37 Uploads: 0	Yesterday I had hope there could be peace after all, today I have very bad feelings about the outcome Markus

08-28-14, 01:26 PM	#1298
Oberon Lucky Jack Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 25,976 Downloads: 61 Uploads: 20	Here's a pic of the 72BM (aka the obr.1989g) And here is the tank in the video: Goddamnit Russia...I love the T-72 but why are there so many bloody versions of it?!

08-28-14, 02:44 PM	#1300
Mr Quatro Navy Seal Join Date: May 2013 Posts: 6,772 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	What you can't see inside those tanks coming over the border from Russia are actually the much needed relief supplies they unloaded from the, covered in white, trucks the Red Cross was trying to help get into the Ukraine and were denied proper access ... all they want to do is get these poor pro Russian peoples some food and generators and medical supplies. as soon as the tanks are unloaded they will return to mother land

08-28-14, 06:14 PM	#1303
Oberon Lucky Jack Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 25,976 Downloads: 61 Uploads: 20	http://www.jedsite.info/tanks-tango/...2bm/t72bm.html http://www.jedsite.info/tanks-tango/...72-series.html

08-28-14, 11:16 PM	#1305
ikalugin Ocean Warrior Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 3,212 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 0	Declaimer - sadly I did not read the previous part of the thread. It is not difinitive, as Ukranian armed forces have Msta-S as well (and on the immagery we do not see something that would prove Russian participation, such as numers larger than those in Ukranian inventory). A simpler way would be to find a rare and obscure system, such as Nona-B and providing the photos where Separatists field more guns than there were in Ukranian inventory (ie more than 2 I think). As to the T72B mods - Ukraine is known to produce many advanced versions of the T72B for export. At the same time the so called Counter Terrorism Operation Forces are well known to mobilise the equipment of varios defense industries. Thus it is possible that the tank appeared that way and deeper investigation is reqired.