I just want to know

[Herman]

The aircraft ready time requirements are just arbitrary numbers and only represent someone's best guess. Everyone has their own opinion on what they should be. The only relevant factor here is that in games like Harpoon or Naval War Arctic Circle, you aren't force to accept someone else's perception of reality. If you don't agree with their numbers, you can always change it to something you find more suitable.

There are people who disagree with the ready times set forth within the Harpoon PlayersDB. They simply change them to 30 minutes or whatever suits them with the DB editor and then play the scenario. That option does not exist for MNO.

[mapuc]

I do not question whether it is correct or not. I just wonder why it takes about 5-6 hours.

I have read about field personnel and pilots need for rest, but which Air Force has ONLY a few staff per plane, and just one pilot per flight ??

Could it be that the dev behind this great game do not know why technically?

Markus

[Herman]

You raise good points. The Harpoon PlayersDB has most strike aircraft set for 6 hour turn-around times. This is just a best guess. The number is only an approximation for the number of times I think the aircraft would fly in a day. It is nothing better than a rough guess.

Other folks have made up all kinds of justifications such as:

17 minutes to taxi
11 minutes to walk to car
02 minutes to take a piss
.2 minutes to shake off
.5 minutes to wash your hands
etc
-----
6 hours total

'Magically', it adds up to some pre-determined time, but the numbers are just pulled out of thin air - pure fabrications. Harpoon players also disagree with the PlayersDB ready times. They just go modify it to what they believe is more accurate. This is what CasoDB and WinstonDB did. They don't agree with the 6 hour delay and changed it to 30 minutes for their own pleasure. You can't do that with MNO.

[mapuc]

Originally Posted by Herman

You raise good points. The Harpoon PlayersDB has most strike aircraft set for 6 hour turn-around times. This is just a best guess. The number is only an approximation for the number of times I think the aircraft would fly in a day. It is nothing better than a rough guess.

Other folks have made up all kinds of justifications such as:

17 minutes to taxi
11 minutes to walk to car
02 minutes to take a piss
.2 minutes to shake off
.5 minutes to wash your hands
etc
-----
6 hours total

'Magically', it adds up to some pre-determined time, but the numbers are just pulled out of thin air - pure fabrications. Harpoon players also disagree with the PlayersDB ready times. They just go modify it to what they believe is more accurate. This is what CasoDB and WinstonDB did. They don't agree with the 6 hour delay and changed it to 30 minutes for their own pleasure. You can't do that with MNO.

First of all I do not need to change the time of readiness if it is correct and I'll have a warefare sim that is as correctly as possible.

Here's another thought may be rude.

So the American fighters e.g F-18F takes about 5 hous to refuel and reload e.g ASUW-loadoat so therefore in EVERY other airforce it MUST be the same readiness time.

Or the first 1000 person is right handed so person number 1001-1010 must also be right handed. logic as its best.

I do not like guesses.

Markus

[Herman]

Originally Posted by mapuc

So the American fighters e.g F-18F takes about 5 hous to refuel and reload e.g ASUW-loadoat so therefore in EVERY other airforce it MUST be the same readiness time.

You are looking at the Ready Time values as though there was some kind of 'right' or 'correct' answer. There is no such thing. There are no mathematical or laws of physics to govern them. They are simply someone's best guess or opinion. It is just one person's perception of reality.

A USAF F-16 might require 6 hours to load with bombs while a Jordanian F-16 might take 8-9 hours for the same loadout. These values are not necessarily the same, but they are arbitrarily set by the database manager in MNO. If you don't agree with them, your only choice is not play or request a refund. You can't change them.

[mapuc]

Originally Posted by Herman

You are looking at the Ready Time values as though there was some kind of 'right' or 'correct' answer. There is no such thing. There are no mathematical or laws of physics to govern them. They are simply someone's best guess or opinion. It is just one person's perception of reality.

A USAF F-16 might require 6 hours to load with bombs while a Jordanian F-16 might take 8-9 hours for the same loadout. These values are not necessarily the same, but they are arbitrarily set by the database manager in MNO. If you don't agree with them, your only choice is not play or request a refund. You can't change them.

Thank you for your answer.

I do hope that I get a technical answer to why it takes so long.


Markus

[noguaranteeofsanity]

Just my 2 cents and thoughts about this...

Some nations or units have multiple crews or pilots for each aircraft, but I also know some nations don't and so rest or sleep would certainly be a factor. For example the RAAF has trouble hanging on to pilots because once they are taught to fly they can get a job with an airline for double or triple the salary, without being moved around the country every few years, or serving in remote airfields. Even when they borrowed pilots from other squadrons, the RAAF only had 25 pilots for the 14 aircraft they deployed to the Middle East to support operations in Iraq.

Maintenance would be another factor that isn't really modelled properly in any game, simply because most aircraft have 1000s of components, each of which will need to be individually serviced after X number of flying hours and it would simply be far too complex to model or keep track of it all (plus make any game unplayable). But for example they might have to pull out and check the engines every 100 hours, or the hydraulics every 50 hours and so on. Grounding an aircraft for 12 hours every day is a good way to abstract this without having a player juggle or worry about complicated maintenance schedules.

I am not certain about this, but if you look at the technical specs for a lot of datalinks used by the military, you will see they are far slower than your average internet connection or computer network, so I imagine that lack of bandwidth might limit the speed that data can be transferred or loaded into a aircraft. That might partly explain the 3 hour delay linking an exocet up to a aircraft, but that is just a guess.

Apart from that I don't think you are going to get a detailed answer, because there are too many different aircraft, weapons and militaries, all of which are going to do things differently in different circumstances, or have different requirements and constraints on how quickly they can ready an aircraft.

Finally if you have Command questions, I would suggest asking on the Matrix forums which seem to be far more active and you are likely to get a much better answer.

[emsoy]

Originally Posted by Herman

The aircraft ready time requirements are just arbitrary numbers and only represent someone's best guess. Everyone has their own opinion on what they should be. The only relevant factor here is that in games like Harpoon or Naval War Arctic Circle, you aren't force to accept someone else's perception of reality. If you don't agree with their numbers, you can always change it to something you find more suitable.

LOL Herman is this supposed to be another one of your little anti-Command potshots?

Still angry for getting called out on your bullcrap - when you copied our (now outdated) Harpoon material and tried to steal the credit for it? Dude, systematically copying other people's work, label it as your 'own creation', and at the same time discrediting, stalking and harassing the original authors isn't cool. More here:

http://www.warfaresims.com/?cat=129

LOL when your hate campaign gets you slapped down and banned by moderators at one site you immediately move on to the next. It's like whack-a-mole.

Herman, how many days have passed since you were banned from a forum and had your posts and 'copycat' material removed and user deleted? Less than two weeks huh?

Oh and where did your stalker & trolling buddy go? The 'Milan Monster' dude? Haven't seen him in at least a few days.

There are people who disagree with the ready times set forth within the Harpoon PlayersDB. They simply change them to 30 minutes or whatever suits them with the DB editor and then play the scenario. That option does not exist for MNO.

In fact it seems most people disagree with you. Wonder why

And what is MNO?

[mapuc]

I'm not interested in that discussion you have with Herman I just want to know the technical stuff behind this 5-6 hour or more regarding refuel and reload or rearm a fighter jet.

I do NOT questioning whether it take 5-6 hour or more

Markus

[emsoy]

I understand, and I apologize.

Please give me some days and I'll try to write up a more detailed explanation. But here and now I can tell you its not topping up of fuel and mounting stores on aircraft that takes time. Main factors are planning, briefing, weapon assembly, crew rest, and to some degree also maintenance.

The planned Quick-Turnaround option will cover fuel and ordnance only, and will be as short as 20-30 min, in some cases even less.

Thanks

[Herman]

Originally Posted by mapuc

I do NOT questioning whether it take 5-6 hour or more

I think you SHOULD. It is a very valid point.

As has been pointed out, the Swedes and Israelis have very sophisticated re-arm and re-fuel systems to maximize sortie rates. That's one reason why Alan Caso created his derivative CasoDB from the PlayersDB. He reduced the generic 6 hour ready times to something he felt was more reasonable, about two hours.

Others have customized the PlayersDB further. One user even had instantaneous ready time! I'd never say that anyone's opinion was right or wrong, but that was a bit drastic even for my tastes. Such a shame that MNO doesn't allow for this option.

[mapuc]

"the Swedes and Israelis have very sophisticated re-arm and re-fuel systems to maximize sortie rates"

INDEED we have. and that's why it take no time to get the onboard computer to accept the missile e.g RBS15 or RB99(AMRAAM) and not like the french 3 hours(don't know why)

But can you say with 110 % sure that it don't take these 5-6 hours for a F18?

I do not know if I should mentioned it or not, it was something I found in some of the Swedish Military forum I found while searching for more info about The readiness regarding refuel and loadout on JAS39.

Markus

[emsoy]

Originally Posted by mapuc

I do not know if I should mentioned it or not, it was something I found in some of the Swedish Military forum I found while searching for more info about The readiness regarding refuel and loadout on JAS39.

Markus

We've already done a fair bit of reseach on this but would really appreciate if you could post those links here.

Thanks!

[mapuc]

Originally Posted by emsoy

We've already done a fair bit of reseach on this but would really appreciate if you could post those links here.

Thanks!

It was not any serious stuff some of the debates made fun of the readiness time of a F18

If I remember what it said

"lol I guess they only have 1 crew to maintain the repair and the reload a.s.o"

They were discussing the readiness time between American fighters and the Swedish JAS39.

Since I have visit so many homepage during my search for English information about JAS39 I can't remember which Swedish homepage it was on. I do remember it was on a Swedish military forum.

If I should find this passages again I will link to it, but I don't know if you understand Swedish

Forgot one thing

It was after have read this funny post I start to get this growing idea..why does it take....
Markus

[Herman]

Originally Posted by mapuc

INDEED we have. and that's why it take no time to get the onboard computer to accept the missile e.g RBS15 or RB99(AMRAAM) and not like the french 3 hours(don't know why)

Since it is French, I bet it's some kind of union thing. The Missile Makers Union local #2457 doesn't want to work with Radar Union #3164 and the three additional hours are to ensure job security.

(Relax everyone, it's just a joke. I love France - especially Les Dames.)

Originally Posted by mapuc

But can you say with 110 % sure that it don't take these 5-6 hours for a F18?

That's the thing. Because I am an honest man, I can say with absolute certainty that "I do not know" and "I could be wrong."

Sure, there are folks who think that 'I put it in my database. That must be how it works because I said so." They then proceed to brow-beat anyone who disagrees. This thread is a perfect example.

The uncertainty is why it has always been so important to have open databases in games like Harpoon and NWAC. No one can ever say that their way is the right or only way. You might think 5-6 hours is acceptable, but someone with a Top Secret manual of operations might feel 45 minutes is sufficient. Unfortunately, even if a user has the real life manual of operations, he cannot implement the information in MNO. With Harpoon, he would just change the relevant data and play his game his way. With MNO, you are stuck with someone else's perception of reality, regardless if there is any actual basis.