A strategic discussion about D-day

Jimbuna · 06-08-14, 05:42 AM

Take Hitler and his dithering out of the equation and the eventual outcome would remain unchanged but would take a bit longer and with higher allied casualties (the time and numbers are anyones guess).

Downunderjock · 06-08-14, 06:26 AM

Hi all.

Depending on where you are in the World, we here in Australia, have just had screened on TV, an hour Doco on D-Day. (now about and hour ago, our time.)

Called D-Day Laid Bare. Apparently, made this year.

On our:

http://www.sbs.com.au/

See this link for 7:30pm Australian Eastern Standard time.

http://www.sbs.com.au/guide/#/

D - Day Laid Bare

It was, I think quite interesting.

Mainly, about "OMHARA" beach, spoke abit about both sides. US and German. And about the Town of Bedford in the US.

I thought it was also, going to look at all the Beach's, but no matter.
(plus the things leading up to and after D-day, alittle more.)

Didn't "UTAH" beach also, have some major, not so good things, happen, too?? At first?

Anyway, hope you will all not mind this.

See Ya.

PS. If you know of other sites, like Sub Sim (Army, Air Force, Navy, etc.)

Whose members might also, like this thread, pls pass on to them.
(and those of computer games, sites too.)

Oh, and as we say: " Lest We Forget"

Too, all Veterans, all sides, who fought in that battle.
(and others, too.)

Let us not forget their deeds, so we can have this life, we live.

STEED · 06-08-14, 06:34 AM

Nothing, why increase the length of the war? Let that bohemian corporal carry on making bloody awful decisions, Manstein knew the war was lost after Stalingrad and Rommel knew once the Allies landed game over. The smart ones saw the writing on the wall.

Armistead · 06-08-14, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

Take Hitler and his dithering out of the equation and the eventual outcome would remain unchanged but would take a bit longer and with higher allied casualties (the time and numbers are anyones guess).

Yea, it's really about the same argument as Lee won at Gettysburg...

tater · 06-08-14, 12:25 PM

Any counterfactual WW2 history ends in the summer of 1945 (July 16th). So you can delay the war until that point, then the calculus immediately changes.

So either the allies decide to negotiate before that point, or the end is near for the Axis.

mapuc · 06-08-14, 01:49 PM

I know it was a though one. Not even the German had the exact spot where the invasion would be. The Allied had given the German false and lots of it, indication that the invasion would take place in Calais. To give the German spies some bait they, the allied even but false tanks and other equipment around dover.

The German also knew that a certain messages from London would indicate that the invasion could take place in the next 24 hours.

To say it easy almost every German General toke the bait and put a lot of it's resource around Calais. What I know and remember from books and the Longest Day, only 1 General was convinced that the allied woul use Normandie.

If I refrained my first post and instead I give you this.

It's June 9th you are the highest German general for Western Europe you are given the chance to go back to June 5th Noon, to fix the failure you have done.

So what's your give, what would you have done different?

Same for Ike.

Markus

Downunderjock · 06-08-14, 07:24 PM

I now have a rethink about Rommel. So though most of the German force's went to Calais. Apparently, according to the show, he as much as he could didn't leave Normandy, too unprotected.

Plus the way, they set up their fortifications and the beach's, no wonder he was the rank he was.

Sadly, due to a couple of bundles from the Allies, at the start. Allied bombing missing the beach targets, etc. Ship and LST's bombing also missed the beach target's too. All that would not have helped.

No wonder, the allies who landed on those beach's copped it.

As for Rommel choosing his wife's Birthday, to be with her. Which would you want to face, her wrath anger and disappointment.
(or the Mad man's?)

Also, he was under pressure when D-Day failed. He had to choose commit sucide or they would do it to his family.

The German public, at the time, didn't know about that.

Then, as some of you know, for the Allies was the "Bocage" the inland fighting.

Oh, and let's pay our respects, to the Paratroopers, from the Allies, for whom without, their action, things might have been very different.

(Though, in that vain at "OMAHA" I guess I need to read up about that to refresh, what occurred as per the Paratroopers.)

And not forget the Air Force and Navy.

Oh, hang about, as per the Submarine section of the German Navy, and it's ships, what happen to them. Prior and during D-Day. (I was aware by that time 1944, things where not looking good for the Germans in the Air.) Was not the same, slowing happening to it's Navy.

As would not the Allies, have been slightly, worried about Sub attacks, on the day. (Or have I forgotten, the missions, that took out a number of the Sub bases.)

Silly me.

Admiral Halsey · 06-08-14, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Armistead

Yea, it's really about the same argument as Lee won at Gettysburg...

Not the same actually. If Lee wins at Gettysburg you can bet your ass that most of the support for the war disappears and Lincoln is forced by Congress to end the war. Only way the Union has a chance of winning at that point is if he gives Grant command of the army, get's Grants troops east ASAP(which also leaves the Western Theater basically open to the Confederates but the war is to be decided in the east and not the west in this scenario.) and hope to god that Grant is able to beat Lee badly enough that Lee is forced to surrender then and there. Meanwhile even if the Germans somehow won at Normandy it buys them a few months at best since they still have the Soviets in the east and the Italian Front in the south.

Downunderjock · 06-13-14, 06:17 AM

Pardon for this extra bit.

While Googling:

"Fear of Submarine attacks, before an during D-Day landings"

As the Navy was moving ships, men, on the morning of the invasion.

Transport, equipment, etc. If all went well???

Found this about, British Midget Subs:

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/midget_submarines_d_day.htm

http://www.rnsubs.co.uk/Dits/Articles/midgets.php

http://www.submarine-museum.co.uk/hms-alliance/119?start=1

I thought I read somewhere, an actual commando group/s landed on each beach, months earlier, to take readings, of the ground cover, for the landing of men, or more so Tanks, etc.??

Though not about D Day:

http://www.defensemedianetwork.com/stories/operation-source-the-british-midget-submarine-attack-on-the-tirpitz/

I am sure you, many of you knew this.

Hope you don't mind.

And that, I am not wasting your time, with something you may have already known.

Fair Winds and Following Seas.

(Burn, sink, or take as a prize.)

06-08-14, 05:42 AM	#1
Jimbuna Chief of the Boat Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 250 metres below the surface Posts: 190,818 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 13	Take Hitler and his dithering out of the equation and the eventual outcome would remain unchanged but would take a bit longer and with higher allied casualties (the time and numbers are anyones guess). __________________ Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something. Oh my God, not again!!

06-08-14, 06:26 AM	#2
Downunderjock Mate Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Geelong, Australia Posts: 55 Downloads: 6 Uploads: 0	Strategic discussion about D-day Hi all. Depending on where you are in the World, we here in Australia, have just had screened on TV, an hour Doco on D-Day. (now about and hour ago, our time.) Called D-Day Laid Bare. Apparently, made this year. On our: http://www.sbs.com.au/ See this link for 7:30pm Australian Eastern Standard time. http://www.sbs.com.au/guide/#/ D - Day Laid Bare It was, I think quite interesting. Mainly, about "OMHARA" beach, spoke abit about both sides. US and German. And about the Town of Bedford in the US. I thought it was also, going to look at all the Beach's, but no matter. (plus the things leading up to and after D-day, alittle more.) Didn't "UTAH" beach also, have some major, not so good things, happen, too?? At first? Anyway, hope you will all not mind this. See Ya. PS. If you know of other sites, like Sub Sim (Army, Air Force, Navy, etc.) Whose members might also, like this thread, pls pass on to them. (and those of computer games, sites too.) Oh, and as we say: " Lest We Forget" Too, all Veterans, all sides, who fought in that battle. (and others, too.) Let us not forget their deeds, so we can have this life, we live.

06-08-14, 06:34 AM	#3
STEED Lucky Jack Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Down Town UK Posts: 27,695 Downloads: 89 Uploads: 48	Nothing, why increase the length of the war? Let that bohemian corporal carry on making bloody awful decisions, Manstein knew the war was lost after Stalingrad and Rommel knew once the Allies landed game over. The smart ones saw the writing on the wall. __________________ Dr Who rest in peace 1963-2017. To borrow Davros saying...I NAME YOU CHIBNALL THE DESTROYER OF DR WHO YOU KILLED IT!

06-08-14, 12:25 PM	#5
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	Any counterfactual WW2 history ends in the summer of 1945 (July 16th). So you can delay the war until that point, then the calculus immediately changes. So either the allies decide to negotiate before that point, or the end is near for the Axis. __________________ "Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one." — Thomas Paine

06-08-14, 07:24 PM	#7
Downunderjock Mate Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Geelong, Australia Posts: 55 Downloads: 6 Uploads: 0	After watching D-Day Bare I now have a rethink about Rommel. So though most of the German force's went to Calais. Apparently, according to the show, he as much as he could didn't leave Normandy, too unprotected. Plus the way, they set up their fortifications and the beach's, no wonder he was the rank he was. Sadly, due to a couple of bundles from the Allies, at the start. Allied bombing missing the beach targets, etc. Ship and LST's bombing also missed the beach target's too. All that would not have helped. No wonder, the allies who landed on those beach's copped it. As for Rommel choosing his wife's Birthday, to be with her. Which would you want to face, her wrath anger and disappointment. (or the Mad man's?) Also, he was under pressure when D-Day failed. He had to choose commit sucide or they would do it to his family. The German public, at the time, didn't know about that. Then, as some of you know, for the Allies was the "Bocage" the inland fighting. Oh, and let's pay our respects, to the Paratroopers, from the Allies, for whom without, their action, things might have been very different. (Though, in that vain at "OMAHA" I guess I need to read up about that to refresh, what occurred as per the Paratroopers.) And not forget the Air Force and Navy. Oh, hang about, as per the Submarine section of the German Navy, and it's ships, what happen to them. Prior and during D-Day. (I was aware by that time 1944, things where not looking good for the Germans in the Air.) Was not the same, slowing happening to it's Navy. As would not the Allies, have been slightly, worried about Sub attacks, on the day. (Or have I forgotten, the missions, that took out a number of the Sub bases.) Silly me.

06-08-14, 01:49 PM	#6
mapuc CINC Pacific Fleet Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Denmark Posts: 20,548 Downloads: 37 Uploads: 0	I know it was a though one. Not even the German had the exact spot where the invasion would be. The Allied had given the German false and lots of it, indication that the invasion would take place in Calais. To give the German spies some bait they, the allied even but false tanks and other equipment around dover. The German also knew that a certain messages from London would indicate that the invasion could take place in the next 24 hours. To say it easy almost every German General toke the bait and put a lot of it's resource around Calais. What I know and remember from books and the Longest Day, only 1 General was convinced that the allied woul use Normandie. If I refrained my first post and instead I give you this. It's June 9th you are the highest German general for Western Europe you are given the chance to go back to June 5th Noon, to fix the failure you have done. So what's your give, what would you have done different? Same for Ike. Markus

06-13-14, 06:17 AM	#9
Downunderjock Mate Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Geelong, Australia Posts: 55 Downloads: 6 Uploads: 0	Strategic discussion about D-day Pardon for this extra bit. While Googling: "Fear of Submarine attacks, before an during D-Day landings" As the Navy was moving ships, men, on the morning of the invasion. Transport, equipment, etc. If all went well??? Found this about, British Midget Subs: http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/midget_submarines_d_day.htm http://www.rnsubs.co.uk/Dits/Articles/midgets.php http://www.submarine-museum.co.uk/hms-alliance/119?start=1 I thought I read somewhere, an actual commando group/s landed on each beach, months earlier, to take readings, of the ground cover, for the landing of men, or more so Tanks, etc.?? Though not about D Day: http://www.defensemedianetwork.com/stories/operation-source-the-british-midget-submarine-attack-on-the-tirpitz/ I am sure you, many of you knew this. Hope you don't mind. And that, I am not wasting your time, with something you may have already known. Fair Winds and Following Seas. (Burn, sink, or take as a prize.)