A question for fellow Americans.

Sinkmore · 05-23-14, 01:06 AM

I doubt they'd recognize it. Not because we've strayed from their noble example, but just because the whole world has changed so much.

Actually I think a lot of them would (like me) be glad that a black man could be President. Not all of them, of course. One of the biggest obstacles to forming a union was how to compromise the morals of the new nation to accommodate a minority of slave owners. As a matter of fact, it almost didn't happen. One civil war later, we're still working on that, it seems...

I think MOST of them would be horrified to see the US as the dominant imperial superpower. They weren't big on Empire, the founders.

About half of the founders were ultra-radicals. That is to say, Liberals! In the original sense of the word. They were the ones with all the fancy ideals that we pay lip service to today. They were anti-empire, anti-crown, anti-corporate, anti-church... Those are the original American values. The other half were tax dodgers, smugglers, etc.. They didn't contribute so much to the philosophy of the thing.

They'd surely have been more shocked to see a woman President. Or a woman voter for that matter. Plenty of black men were free, even in the South, and many were respected professionals, etc.. The first rebel casualty was, after all, Crispus Attucks. IDK if he counts as a founder, but I bet he'd be shocked that it took 240 years (and counting...) for America to be ready to treat black people like people. (And just forget women. Plenty of founders fought to make blacks citizens; others fought to end slavery with the idea of deporting the ex-slaves; but none as far as I know ever mentioned women's rights.

They might have been surprised that you, white middle class guy, were allowed to vote. You used to have to own land; by which I do not mean the teensy suburban parcel that your house is on! Some of them would puke in their powdered wigs if they saw that. Most, maybe. They weren't very (modern sense of) democratic, mostly.

I think they'd all be ashamed of the anti-Americanism coming from the lunatic fringes - right and left - but I don't think they'd have been surprised as such things are older than dirt (and equally valuable.) Same with the toxic (and distracting) party politics.

Speaking of tea parties; did you know that the Boston Tea Party was a violent, lawless response to the British LOWERING taxes on tea? I just love that bit of irony. The founders were not anti-tax. At all.

Mostly, I think they'd be so amazed, and perhaps appalled, by the 21st century generally (cell phones, reality TV, globalism, mass consumerism) that they'd hardly notice America at all. Everything has changed! The nature of nations, of rulers, of wars... Families, marriage, child rearing, professions, agriculture, travel... Everything. what if you were unfrozen in the year 2250... Too much future shock to imagine.

AVGWarhawk · 05-23-14, 04:23 AM

Probably be aghast concerning the manipulation and ignoring the Constitution.

Dread Knot · 05-23-14, 04:37 AM

If you could somehow transport the Founding Fathers into a 21st century press conference, you'd likely have to sedate and restrain them before you get more than gibberish, shouts and oaths out of them. They would likely think themselves mad or drunk and you might eventually get lines like this----

"You flicked your hand over a panel by the door and illumination burst forth. What witchcraft is this?"

"This room is exceedingly warm, but there is no hearth to be seen. Is this the realm of Lucifer?"

"That Negro there is dressed in the finery of a man of title. Why is he not working in the fields?

"The exposed flesh on all these harlots is truely an earthy delight. Ben, you hedonist, lend me the use of your spectacles."

"You say I can speak forth into this instrument and my words will be heard over the space of a continent? What poor jibe is this?"

"You claim this one musket can lay the fire of an entire company of soldiers?" Jefferson, we must rethink the 2nd Amendment."

"Sodomites are allowed to -- WHAT?"

At some point in the proceedings a camera flash would pop, or a jet would pass overhead. At this point the Founding Fathers would pile out teh door in terror, into the street and likely be killed in traffic.

I think the question of 'what would the founders think of the state of our nation?' is a false one. They could not have possibly foreseen this, and wouldn't have had the context with which to process it if they could have. They were, after all, mere mortal men. Maybe more educated and intelligent than most, but not magical.

I think a more pertinent analogy is if you could sit down with the ten -year old version of yourself. Now start badgering that ten year old with life questions about funding college, tax law, what divorce attorney you hire, or what insurance policy to buy, or how you should set up your 401k. Likely, even if he was a straight-A student he will just stare or start to shed tears in bafflement. He doesn't have the experience or prespective to process it. More importantly what would his opinion matter? He thankfully hasn't had to live it yet. If, the ten year version of ourselves doesn't have the answers to our complicated modern lives, why do we always think the 18th century founders of our young nation if beamed into the present would have the answers to all the unforeseen dilemmas of our history?

Jimbuna · 05-23-14, 05:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

Probably be aghast concerning the manipulation and ignoring the Constitution.

Not an American but a bloody good point.

AVGWarhawk · 05-23-14, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

Not an American but a bloody good point.

Honestly. These gentlemen put deep thought, consideration, sweat, revisions and debate over this single piece of paper that would be the law of the land. Absolute. Instead, today, they would find a piece of paper with a large brown swath down the center and a empty toilet paper roll. Not how I would want my work to be handled in moving a country forward. The Constitution is not a living breathing document. It is not up for a change to accommodate an agenda.

AVGWarhawk · 05-23-14, 12:40 PM

This is my case and point:

Quote:

President Obama is taking a swipe at the Founding Fathers, blaming his inability to move his agenda on the “disadvantage” of having each state represented equally in the Senate.
At a Democratic fundraiser in Chicago Thursday night, Mr. Obama told a small group of wealthy supporters that there are several hurdles to keeping Democrats in control of the Senate and recapturing the House. One of those problems, he said, is the apportionment of two Senate seats to each state regardless of population.

Read more: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...#ixzz32YsGjEv7
Follow us: @washtimes on Twitter

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...ress-gridlock/

So hey, let's change what the founding fathers designed for his own gain!!

The Constitution is meaningless in this administration. Maybe the design was to assure poor agendas do not move forward. What do I know? I think the founding fathers would be appalled. I say job well done gents.

nikimcbee · 05-23-14, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

Probably be aghast concerning the manipulation and ignoring the Constitution.

This

Quote:

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

Honestly. These gentlemen put deep thought, consideration, sweat, revisions and debate over this single piece of paper that would be the law of the land. Absolute. Instead, today, they would find a piece of paper with a large brown swath down the center and a empty toilet paper roll. Not how I would want my work to be handled in moving a country forward. The Constitution is not a living breathing document. It is not up for a change to accommodate an agenda.

This

Quote:

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

This is my case and point:

Read more: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...#ixzz32YsGjEv7
Follow us: @washtimes on Twitter

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...ress-gridlock/

So hey, let's change what the founding fathers designed for his own gain!!

The Constitution is meaningless in this administration. Maybe the design was to assure poor agendas do not move forward. What do I know? I think the founding fathers would be appalled. I say job well done gents.

...and this.

The purpose of the Constitution is to put a leash on Federal power. The people in power don't like having a leash on, they want to be able to do whatever they want. I'd say politians for the last ~60 have been trying to take the leash off and once it's off, there's no putting it back on.

Armistead · 05-23-14, 01:48 PM

Ben Franklin would probably be running a porn ring.

Sailor Steve · 05-23-14, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nikimcbee

I'd say politians for the last ~60 have been trying to take the leash off and once it's off, there's no putting it back on.

I'd say you're off by about 167 years. Politicians have been trying to subvert the Constitution from day one, including the ones who helped write it.

In my opinion many of the founders would indeed object to the treatment their ideal has recieved, but they also objected to that very treatment back in their day. Why do you think Madison and Jefferson ended up despising Hamilton, and vice versa? One of the great things about George Washington was his true love for his country an desire to do anything to make it work. Sadly, of all of them he seems to have been the only one.

I too dislike what is being done today. I'm just pointing out that it's nothing new. I think most of the Founders would recognize exactly what is happening, and would find it uncomfortably familiar.

05-23-14, 04:23 AM	#2
AVGWarhawk Lucky Jack Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: In a 1954 Buick. Posts: 28,276 Downloads: 90 Uploads: 0	Probably be aghast concerning the manipulation and ignoring the Constitution. __________________ “You're painfully alive in a drugged and dying culture.” ― Richard Yates, Revolutionary Road

05-23-14, 04:37 AM	#3
Dread Knot Ace of the Deep Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 1,288 Downloads: 85 Uploads: 0	If you could somehow transport the Founding Fathers into a 21st century press conference, you'd likely have to sedate and restrain them before you get more than gibberish, shouts and oaths out of them. They would likely think themselves mad or drunk and you might eventually get lines like this---- "You flicked your hand over a panel by the door and illumination burst forth. What witchcraft is this?" "This room is exceedingly warm, but there is no hearth to be seen. Is this the realm of Lucifer?" "That Negro there is dressed in the finery of a man of title. Why is he not working in the fields? "The exposed flesh on all these harlots is truely an earthy delight. Ben, you hedonist, lend me the use of your spectacles." "You say I can speak forth into this instrument and my words will be heard over the space of a continent? What poor jibe is this?" "You claim this one musket can lay the fire of an entire company of soldiers?" Jefferson, we must rethink the 2nd Amendment." "Sodomites are allowed to -- WHAT?" At some point in the proceedings a camera flash would pop, or a jet would pass overhead. At this point the Founding Fathers would pile out teh door in terror, into the street and likely be killed in traffic. I think the question of 'what would the founders think of the state of our nation?' is a false one. They could not have possibly foreseen this, and wouldn't have had the context with which to process it if they could have. They were, after all, mere mortal men. Maybe more educated and intelligent than most, but not magical. I think a more pertinent analogy is if you could sit down with the ten -year old version of yourself. Now start badgering that ten year old with life questions about funding college, tax law, what divorce attorney you hire, or what insurance policy to buy, or how you should set up your 401k. Likely, even if he was a straight-A student he will just stare or start to shed tears in bafflement. He doesn't have the experience or prespective to process it. More importantly what would his opinion matter? He thankfully hasn't had to live it yet. If, the ten year version of ourselves doesn't have the answers to our complicated modern lives, why do we always think the 18th century founders of our young nation if beamed into the present would have the answers to all the unforeseen dilemmas of our history? Last edited by Dread Knot; 05-23-14 at 06:47 AM.

05-23-14, 01:48 PM	#8
Armistead Rear Admiral Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: on the Dan Posts: 10,880 Downloads: 364 Uploads: 0	Ben Franklin would probably be running a porn ring. __________________ You see my dog don't like people laughing. He gets the crazy idea you're laughing at him. Now if you apologize like I know you're going to, I might convince him that you really didn't mean it.

05-23-14, 01:06 AM	#1
Sinkmore Shore leave Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: Pacific Coast, North America Posts: 70 Downloads: 129 Uploads: 0	I doubt they'd recognize it. Not because we've strayed from their noble example, but just because the whole world has changed so much. Actually I think a lot of them would (like me) be glad that a black man could be President. Not all of them, of course. One of the biggest obstacles to forming a union was how to compromise the morals of the new nation to accommodate a minority of slave owners. As a matter of fact, it almost didn't happen. One civil war later, we're still working on that, it seems... I think MOST of them would be horrified to see the US as the dominant imperial superpower. They weren't big on Empire, the founders. About half of the founders were ultra-radicals. That is to say, Liberals! In the original sense of the word. They were the ones with all the fancy ideals that we pay lip service to today. They were anti-empire, anti-crown, anti-corporate, anti-church... Those are the original American values. The other half were tax dodgers, smugglers, etc.. They didn't contribute so much to the philosophy of the thing. They'd surely have been more shocked to see a woman President. Or a woman voter for that matter. Plenty of black men were free, even in the South, and many were respected professionals, etc.. The first rebel casualty was, after all, Crispus Attucks. IDK if he counts as a founder, but I bet he'd be shocked that it took 240 years (and counting...) for America to be ready to treat black people like people. (And just forget women. Plenty of founders fought to make blacks citizens; others fought to end slavery with the idea of deporting the ex-slaves; but none as far as I know ever mentioned women's rights. They might have been surprised that you, white middle class guy, were allowed to vote. You used to have to own land; by which I do not mean the teensy suburban parcel that your house is on! Some of them would puke in their powdered wigs if they saw that. Most, maybe. They weren't very (modern sense of) democratic, mostly. I think they'd all be ashamed of the anti-Americanism coming from the lunatic fringes - right and left - but I don't think they'd have been surprised as such things are older than dirt (and equally valuable.) Same with the toxic (and distracting) party politics. Speaking of tea parties; did you know that the Boston Tea Party was a violent, lawless response to the British LOWERING taxes on tea? I just love that bit of irony. The founders were not anti-tax. At all. Mostly, I think they'd be so amazed, and perhaps appalled, by the 21st century generally (cell phones, reality TV, globalism, mass consumerism) that they'd hardly notice America at all. Everything has changed! The nature of nations, of rulers, of wars... Families, marriage, child rearing, professions, agriculture, travel... Everything. what if you were unfrozen in the year 2250... Too much future shock to imagine.