Huge pro-EU rally grips Ukraine

[Mr Quatro]

Originally Posted by Dmitry Markov

Hi everyone - thanks for kind words!
I've noticed another problem concerning mass media and public opinion: and that's simply a language barrier.
Concerning my point of view on this conflict, You must admit one thing - I don't watch TV - neither Russian, nor Western. My AV system is not even connected to antenna or SAT.
Most info I get on the situation comes from Internet or from direct speaking with different people.
And here I've got an advantage - I am bilingual ( three lingual counting French although I don't speak but only read, and a bit of German, Japanese and so on.., ah! And don't forget about Ukrainian - every Russian can understand Ukrainian if not talk)
so I can get info everywhere, while most Western people get info only in English or in their local languages and most Russians get info only in Russian.
A tremendous volume of info in Russian which is rarely translated just passes away from view of Western public.
I suppose You don't trust RT that much as it's a government channel, but unfortunately you can't read blogs, twits, hear Zello channels and so on. There are plenty of them actually.
For example - BBC concerning maidan in February showed only Maidan hitmen being fired at by unseen sniper. But it never showed another videos with unarmed Berkut officers who were shot and burned with bottles of napalm by radicals a night before. This kind of videos is being removed from YouTube or being given 18+ ratio very quickly.
What you don't see also are Ustream channels. For example the ones from Odessa where Right Sector hitmen kill people who are trying to escape from burning House of Trade Unions, where happy hitmen search and count burnt and head-shot bodies with replicas like "Look haha there's Romeo and Juliet" at the sight of a guy and a girl who died in arms of each other. So-called interim government fully supports that all telling that those people burned themselves and the only guilty persons are Police officials.
Strange "European choice"...
BBC talking about war in South-East speaks only of junta's forces casualties and never tells about kids being accidentally shot, about junta's APC opening fire at a group of locals who were unarmed and trying to keep military forces out of their town. About a young woman who went out to her balcony to see for her husband coming home and was head-shot by junta sniper.
Not to talk about junta's decision to deploy artillery and multiple-rocket launchers against cities without evacuating civilians ( in Russian this word translated as " peaceful inhabitants" ).
This move is most dangerous for everyone.
You see, we here read the blogs from South-East, here their voices on Zello as they repel junta's forces assaults and feel ourselves ashamed and inept to help people who call themselves Russians (even being Ukrainians) and who ask for our help calling us in Russia "well-fed hamsters". That's on the one hand.
On the other - if artillery and multiple launch systems would be used - our country would have to react because if it won't react than we are true are well-fed hamsters who care only for their well-fed live.
By the words "react" I mean not necessarily an intervention. It could be point cruise missile strikes in style we've eliminated Dudaev. Or it could be night attack helos Mi-28 strike on junta's armoured vehicles groups. But that would give junta's another aces in hand for their propaganda and I imagine what would be shown in Western media assuming they won't show junta's artillery firing at Slavyansk.
And in case of intervention we can face partisan actions because although South-East is for most part Russian - it's not totally Russian like Crimea.
Another long-lasting hot conflict is not the thing I personally dream about taking into account ten years of Chechnya and knowing how much work and time it took for NKVD to get reed of UPA in 40's - 50's ( and those actions were taking place only in woods on a small territory of westernmost parts of Ukrainian Soviet Republic). At least that would mean my own hamster's life will become less well-fed.
So the last VVP's words of moving the troops from the border and ask to postpone the vote in South-East while being concidered by South-Eastern people as betrayal, are in fact partly to give junta a chance not to overescalate the situation. Of course first artillery barrage would give him an argument like : " You see, We've told them..."

Actually, I don't see an exit from this situation - junta is not interested in loosing most important industrial region, locals have lost interest to project "Ukraine"
and won't talk with junta, West supporting junta and trying to save the face after Odessa, Us trying to save the face after talking of non-supporting people whom we have to support...

Let's study foreign languages

Thank you Dmitry for your input ... this is an international forum message board and it is refreshing to have something besides CNN, NBC, CBS, Fox and ABC for a view.

I for one surf with a TV on a 40" LCD hdmi one (1) hooked to a AV with four hdmi plug-ins and the PC hooked up to the same LCD TV plugged into hdmi two (2) meaning that I have the sound for any channel without the view and surf the net at the same time, understand?

Now here's what you get to hear about in the USA in between the commercials that is, MH370 search patterns, Donald Stearlings racist comments about the NBA black players talking to his occasional girlfriend about what she can do or what she can't do and of course the news about bad weather in the mid-west and the east coast and the drought in California with news about what President Obama thinks about anything he thinks repeated every other hour and maybe once every two hours a brief summary about what pro-Russian supposedly civilian forces are doing in the Ukraine.

That's about it ... if we want news about the Russian/Ukraine problems we have to zone in like a search radar on the news from Bing, Google or Yahoo or a friendly message board like subsim.

I don't know what the people on the street think due to my rural area, but that's okay with me leaves more time for fishing and picture taking with this beautiful spring weather.

Thanks again for your input

[Alex]

http://french.ruvr.ru/news/2014_05_0...llemande-9589/

Western countries, and mainly the united states of America do bear responsibility for the escalation of tensions in Ukraine, as Sahra Wagenknecht - former parliamentary leader of the german left-wing party - indicated.

While the russian government called supporters of the federalization of Ukraine for cancelling the referendum, NATO and EU proclaimed threats, calling for the strengthening of sanctions, while military units were transferred in the area, she noted.

If you keep offending the dignity of a country, you may end up receiving some reaction in response to what you did, she said.

The beaten dog dares to look facts in the face.

[Dmitry Markov]

Skybird, please don't call militias in South-East a terrorists - 'till present moment they didn't murder any civilian in Kiev or in Lvov, didn't blast any bus or metro station, never opened fire into crowd. I live in Russia - I know what the word "terrorist" mean . In 2004 I've missed a blown up underground train by minutes. Blocks of flats blown up in 1999 are situated in my district ( because it's closest to the highway to Northern Caucasus). Believe me, this term cannot be applied to the people in Donetzk and Lugansk regions. Yet...
Sorry if I seem a moralist - I am not ))

Mr Quattro - You are welcome :-)
Rural areas rule! In our family we've changed our minds from popular in our country "beach tourism" with all-inclusive hotels to rural tourism. When I was a child I used to visit my grandparents village. Now I've got my own kids and We try to create such emotions for them - a touch of more natural life - which can now easily be combined with visiting other countries and seeing local specialities of that way of life. Last year We've been to Spain - in mountain village in Andalusia (instead of seashore where most of our compatriots usually go) and it was incredible! An air is cleaner, people are nice and it was very very quiet. And this year we go to France - to a village in Languedoc near Carcassonne

Being a big city dweller I nearly envy suburb and rural inhabitants ;-)

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Dmitry Markov

Skybird, please don't call militias in South-East a terrorists - 'till present moment they didn't murder any civilian in Kiev or in Lvov, didn't blast any bus or metro station, never opened fire into crowd.

It's a mixed bag, Dmitry, and while I am not thinking that all those groups are terrorist, I am quite sure that some of them have their bloody, dirty secrets to hide by now, too - conflicts like this one now never get carried out by any fighting side keeping its hands clean. The Eastern opposition to Kiev in general does not give me a completely united look, some local leaders seem to run their own thing. It's not the same thing like on the Crimean.

While I am not believing blindly what Kiev says, I also do not blindly believe the Kremlin's propaganda machinery.

My general attitude towards all these events is pragmatic, and you can get an idea of it by my postings in general, not just by one sentence or word.

[Oberon]

Terrorist is a subjective word anyway.

[Skybird]

And I mentioned it only anyway because an according formulation is in the article I said I summarised.

Originally Posted by SZ

Was in der Ostukraine geschieht, kann Moskau nicht gefallen. Verbündete, die Terror verbreiten, mag auch der auf Ordnung und klare Befehlsstrukturen bedachte russische Präsident nicht haben: Neben professionellen Kämpfern und geschulten Agitatoren tummeln sich im Donbass eitle Neu-Politiker dubioser Provenienz, Schläger und Hooligans sowie kriminelle Banden, die Banken und Geschäfte ausrauben. Und, das darf nicht vergessen werden, auch ehrlich empörte Bürger, die nicht mögen, was sie aus Kiew hören.

[TarJak]

Originally Posted by Oberon

Terrorist is a subjective word anyway.

QFT patriots, terrorists, freedom fighters, mujahadeen. All the same thing depending on your viewpoint.

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by TarJak

QFT patriots, terrorists, freedom fighters, mujahadeen. All the same thing depending on your viewpoint.

You missed a couple...politicians, bankers

[TarJak]

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

You missed a couple...politicians, bankers

Sssh! They were on the missing pages.

[Jimbuna]

[Skybird]

German tabloid Bild am Sonntag refers to the German BND when printing that Kiew has 400 elite mercenaries from US company Academi (formerly known as Blackwater) operating with its combat troops in the Donezk region.

First they fought to help growing new record harvests of poppy in Afghanistan, to secure the drug supply to Europe and America. Now they are fighting in the Ukraine, for a fascist party and thugs and leading gangsters from the organised crime, and dubious oligarchs that are anything but democratically oriented. We will see sooner or later what masterful and brilliant ideas America's auxiliaries are fighting for and support this time.

[mapuc]

I wonder how reliable that is. American "soldiers" either directly or indirectly involved in the unrest in eastern Ukraine. This would increase the tension in the area.

Markus

[Dan D]

Porno Metal Reggae

[Oberon]

Hey, if Kiev can afford it...which thanks to the IMF they can, Academi has the training and equipment. I doubt the US explicitly sent them to the Ukraine, but equally I doubt they would have stopped them anyway.

Mercenaries in warzones are hardly a new thing, I recall a lot of the 1970s African brush-wars had British mercenaries, some government owned, some freelancers, it's good money if you survive, and with so many armed forces in the west cutting back in the recession, it's a logical choice for an ex-soldier or ex-special forces to join a PMC.

I think that there's only a handful of people in this thread, if that, that truly think that the Kiev regime is a band of angels, it's a real alien vs predator situation but most wars are like that, both sides get their hands dirty and have questionable motives. Whoever wins then writes the history. C'est la guerre.

Still, on the up side for Putin, at least Russia got more Eurovision points than the UK...which means that the UK is hated more in Europe than Russia...and neither are hated as much as the French, just as it should be.

Originally Posted by mapuc

I wonder how reliable that is. American "soldiers" either directly or indirectly involved in the unrest in eastern Ukraine. This would increase the tension in the area.

Markus

About as reliable as Russian 'soldiers' being either directly or indirectly involved in the unrest in eastern Ukraine. War is a dirty business, and technically Academi is not a legal branch of the US military, it is a Private Military Company which means they are mercenaries, which are defined as:

Art 47. Mercenaries
1. A mercenary shall not have the right to be a combatant or a prisoner of war.
2. A mercenary is any person who:
(a) is especially recruited locally or abroad in order to fight in an armed conflict;
(b) does, in fact, take a direct part in the hostilities;
(c) is motivated to take part in the hostilities essentially by the desire for private gain and, in fact, is promised, by or on behalf of a Party to the conflict, material compensation substantially in excess of that promised or paid to combatants of similar ranks and functions in the armed forces of that Party;
(d) is neither a national of a Party to the conflict nor a resident of territory controlled by a Party to the conflict;
(e) is not a member of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict; and
(f) has not been sent by a State which is not a Party to the conflict on official duty as a member of its armed forces.

(Protocol Additional GC 1977 (APGC77) )


The problem comes in ascertaining whether a mercenary has taken an active role in the conflict, if they have then they may be treated as a common criminal and face execution if captured. If they are not then they may qualify as civilian contractors and then they are protected under the Geneva Convention III


Honestly though, PMCs are becoming an increasingly bothersome legal matter, and there's a LOT of grey area...which is mostly where they operate.

Also, since copy and pasting that definition my text layout has gone all funky, probably an FSB plot...

[BossMark]