Huge pro-EU rally grips Ukraine

[TarJak]

Originally Posted by Dmitry Markov

I've been hesitating for a while - to post or not to post 'cause I'm more the reader than the writer.

Well ,let me be the voice from the other camp. Maybe I will give you another point of view. My language and style are far from being perfect and sometimes I may seem to be floundering in my own thoughts but nevertheless:

I was born in USSR and I am still sorry for it split.
Not because of it was a larger and more powerful state - but because of another spirit.
You see - Russia is now a capitalist state where everyone ( not excluding me) care for earning money and for creating better living conditions for oneself and one's family only. That's what we were doing since 1992.
It's normal - that's what all other individuals do all over the world.
But over the time it turned out that for most part of us that's not exactly the way we want to live - you see it's just not our national mentality.
In USSR times we thought the images in the song like Pink Floyd's "Time" or in Genesis's "Get em out by Friday" are some kind of horrors that exist in some other reality and could not concern us seriously. Now look - it's all around.
I don't want to tell that USSR was an Elven Kingdom - it wasn't of course.
Some things are still seem idiotic Like slogans about Party on the buildings ( which are now imposed by an advertising of Samsung, Apple etc - so on this part things haven't changed a lot).
You see - our way of thinking comes from our historical way of living - we used to live in villages not in individual households. It has obvious good and bad sides but that's how it is.
If you care not only for your household but for village as well, the village would help you in case of need. You know if you do something - you are proud that you helping all in your community to live better. And when it comes to one's last hour - he passes in peace because he knows he would be remembered for his efforts.
That's why being a constructor or serving in the Army was earning more respect in our society than being a lucky salesman for example.
For twenty years it seemed that a salesmen are on top 'cause you know girls prefer guys with money.
Now we understand that girls and money are not everything that makes us happy. We need to be remembered. To know that our efforts are not only for our pockets but for wellness of all our people.
We didn't support Putin that much because it seemed that he cares only for pockets of him and the ones around him. Everything was proving it as it seemed: they were selling the Army by hands of former Defence Minister Serdyukov, they were stealing a lot talking about national projects and never completing them, and so on.
Things become changing couple of years ago - it started with Serdyukov's dismiss and rebirth of army ( I remember happy officers celebrating this happening as a national holiday). Then Putin did what everybody wanted him to do - he forbid state officials to have actives and accounts abroad - and that were the points at which his ratings began to grow.
As for Ukraine - even before their civil war started... Look what their institute of state has achieved through twenty years: after USSR split they took best agricultural lands in Europe, population comparing with that of France, aviation industry, space industry, automobile industry, half of USSR's airforce and army and much more not to say about most advanced infrastructure in the whole USSR.
All their state can do with all that are revolutions every ten years, and no sign of any improving except for new condominiums for nouveau riches in Kiev.
And now they've got a civil war still saying on the one hand that "all our troubles are because of evil Putin and evil Russians" and on the other - slogans like "10000$ for Moscal" or " Moscals to the knives" " Bandera come and make an order".
No doubts when your authorities: 1) officially call you a "Moscal" or "Katzap", 2) tell you that you will earn half as much and pay twice as much because of their "European choice" , say that you haven't an option to be disagree because of 1) what would you choose knowing that you produce most part of national product and paying most part of taxes?

Sorry for bad English and being diffusive

Dmitry

Post of the month for this thread. Thanks for the insight. This sort of comment is likely to never be seen on Western media.

And your English is great. Even some native English speakers stumble over our words sometimes

[Skybird]

Putin blinks, said Mr Quatro. Her hasn't. He already got what he wanted: the Crimneanh, A prevention of EU and NATO moving into the Ukraine, a clearification that without Russia nothing goes in the Eastern Ukraine, the prevention of a strong unified government in Kiev, and as they report now: "far-leading concession" by Western nations. The Eastern Ukraine however, would be a financial burden to Russia, so why picking it up if being able to control it from the outside without needing to shoulder the financial burdens. By keeping the East unsettled and rebellious, he can notoriously keep Kiev under pressure. In chess, you do not uselessly exchange a figure for another figure you got pinned. The pinning itself is of much more tactical value than a pointless exchange of two figures that makes life easier for your opponent.

In this context it is interesting to learn that the Ukraine has just bought gold worth 1 billion dollars with money freshly given to it from Western powers and global institutions. I am all for buying gold, but with my money MY gold only, please. Why, amongst others, my money got wasted wasted to them so that THEY can buy gold, is beyond me, I think this was not what that made-in-the-West money was meant for...

[Dmitry Markov]

Hi everyone - thanks for kind words!
I've noticed another problem concerning mass media and public opinion: and that's simply a language barrier.
Concerning my point of view on this conflict, You must admit one thing - I don't watch TV - neither Russian, nor Western. My AV system is not even connected to antenna or SAT.
Most info I get on the situation comes from Internet or from direct speaking with different people.
And here I've got an advantage - I am bilingual ( three lingual counting French although I don't speak but only read, and a bit of German, Japanese and so on.., ah! And don't forget about Ukrainian - every Russian can understand Ukrainian if not talk)
so I can get info everywhere, while most Western people get info only in English or in their local languages and most Russians get info only in Russian.
A tremendous volume of info in Russian which is rarely translated just passes away from view of Western public.
I suppose You don't trust RT that much as it's a government channel, but unfortunately you can't read blogs, twits, hear Zello channels and so on. There are plenty of them actually.
For example - BBC concerning maidan in February showed only Maidan hitmen being fired at by unseen sniper. But it never showed another videos with unarmed Berkut officers who were shot and burned with bottles of napalm by radicals a night before. This kind of videos is being removed from YouTube or being given 18+ ratio very quickly.
What you don't see also are Ustream channels. For example the ones from Odessa where Right Sector hitmen kill people who are trying to escape from burning House of Trade Unions, where happy hitmen search and count burnt and head-shot bodies with replicas like "Look haha there's Romeo and Juliet" at the sight of a guy and a girl who died in arms of each other. So-called interim government fully supports that all telling that those people burned themselves and the only guilty persons are Police officials.
Strange "European choice"...
BBC talking about war in South-East speaks only of junta's forces casualties and never tells about kids being accidentally shot, about junta's APC opening fire at a group of locals who were unarmed and trying to keep military forces out of their town. About a young woman who went out to her balcony to see for her husband coming home and was head-shot by junta sniper.
Not to talk about junta's decision to deploy artillery and multiple-rocket launchers against cities without evacuating civilians ( in Russian this word translated as " peaceful inhabitants" ).
This move is most dangerous for everyone.
You see, we here read the blogs from South-East, here their voices on Zello as they repel junta's forces assaults and feel ourselves ashamed and inept to help people who call themselves Russians (even being Ukrainians) and who ask for our help calling us in Russia "well-fed hamsters". That's on the one hand.
On the other - if artillery and multiple launch systems would be used - our country would have to react because if it won't react than we are true are well-fed hamsters who care only for their well-fed live.
By the words "react" I mean not necessarily an intervention. It could be point cruise missile strikes in style we've eliminated Dudaev. Or it could be night attack helos Mi-28 strike on junta's armoured vehicles groups. But that would give junta's another aces in hand for their propaganda and I imagine what would be shown in Western media assuming they won't show junta's artillery firing at Slavyansk.
And in case of intervention we can face partisan actions because although South-East is for most part Russian - it's not totally Russian like Crimea.
Another long-lasting hot conflict is not the thing I personally dream about taking into account ten years of Chechnya and knowing how much work and time it took for NKVD to get reed of UPA in 40's - 50's ( and those actions were taking place only in woods on a small territory of westernmost parts of Ukrainian Soviet Republic). At least that would mean my own hamster's life will become less well-fed.
So the last VVP's words of moving the troops from the border and ask to postpone the vote in South-East while being concidered by South-Eastern people as betrayal, are in fact partly to give junta a chance not to overescalate the situation. Of course first artillery barrage would give him an argument like : " You see, We've told them..."

Actually, I don't see an exit from this situation - junta is not interested in loosing most important industrial region, locals have lost interest to project "Ukraine"
and won't talk with junta, West supporting junta and trying to save the face after Odessa, Us trying to save the face after talking of non-supporting people whom we have to support...

Let's study foreign languages

[August]

I suppose the Russians are quite happy to leave Chernobyl to the Ukrainians.

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by August

I suppose the Russians are quite happy to leave Chernobyl to the Ukrainians.

Only until it becomes inhabitable again

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Dmitry Markov

Hi everyone - thanks for kind words!
I've noticed another problem concerning mass ...

(...)

... save the face after talking of non-supporting people whom we have to support...

Let's study foreign languages

Western mainstream media are heavily censored already, and mostly serve as propaganda platforms. It must not necessarily be formal censorship by state-called censor sitting in censoring offices, but it is the heavily regulated use of terminology and phrasing, slogans and suggestive wording, the language shows thinking the "right" path. Of course, heavy political manipulation of TV and newspapers also play a role, in some cases more, in others less. German first and second state TV channels for exmaple are heavily regulated by representativies of established political parties CDD/CSU and SPD who sit in the governing panels and board of directors, having great influence on what journalist with what political views and servile basic attitudes towards the parties (a precondition today to make career on TV) gets promoted. But the biggest censoring influence has the labguage being used, it is designed to suggest the wanted opinions and views, and implies wanted views and opinions of PC, wanted policies, and (anti)social lobby groups that are allies of political parties.

The audience this way gets trained and educated to censor itself without realising it. Great! Orwell's vision in comparison was primitive if you compare it to this perfidy today.

Its a problem in all Western nations, Europe and America alike.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

Only until it becomes inhabitable again

Many animals that returned to the radiating zone show to have grown stronger immune systems and resistances to radiation, they grow slightly bigger and are slightly stronger in muscles. No joke. I read it some weeks ago in some German report that was - I think - summarising the findings of some Russian or Finnish scientists, I do not precisely recall it anymore. Talk was of many bird species, wolves and deer. No word on insects, reptiles, fishes, bears (if they had bears there).

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Many animals that returned to the radiating zone show to have grown stronger immune systems and resistances to radiation, they grow slightly bigger and are slightly stronger in muscles. No joke. I read it some weeks ago in some German report that was - I think - summarising the findings of some Russian or Finnish scientists, I do not precisely recall it anymore. Talk was of many bird species, wolves and deer. No word on insects, reptiles, fishes, bears (if they had bears there).

One species missing....human being

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

One species missing....human being

Not necessarily:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/env...wasteland.html

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/11/07/op...ted-chernobyl/

Of course, now I need to post:

[Jimbuna]

^ Bah! At that age they're fixtures and fittings

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

^ Bah! At that age they're fixtures and fittings

Talking from experience are we?

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Oberon

Talking from experience are we?

We'll settle this in York young man...I may be short on teeth but I still have a ferocious bite

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

We'll settle this in York young man...I may be short on teeth but I still have a ferocious bite

Just remember to wind your dentures up first

[Dmitry Markov]

Gentlemen, let's not joke on Chernobyl at least here. Of course it's not something that could be dealt this way - 'cause it's our mutual tragedy all across former USSR. It was our common country the days it happened. A lot of people suffered ( my relatives as well) and still suffer. Knowing the still danger of this object ... And Ukraine doesn't have neither money nor specialists to cope with it on it's own.

[HunterICX]

Originally Posted by August

I suppose the Russians are quite happy to leave Chernobyl to the Ukrainians.

Chernobyl isn't a Russian nor Ukrainian problem, it's a European problem.
The Sarcophagus that currently is over the station is in a really bad shape and it's hell to pay fo the whole European continent if that thing collapses on top of the remains of the Reactor. They planned to have the NSC (New Safe Confinement) up in 2015 which should prevent any more radioactive waste to spread into the enviroment, prevent further corrosion to the existing shelter and allow partial deconstruction of the old shelter like the unstable roof.