Couple of dumb questions...

[Dread Knot]

Originally Posted by Bothersome

I'm looking for answers for.

1. Did the USA have any sub operations in the Atlantic or Baltic? I don't seem to find much information on this. I'd especially like to see some videos or movies on such.

SubRon 50 was briefly stationed in Roseneath, Scotland in 1942. It consisted of six Gato class boats. The Barb, Blackfish, Herring, Shad, Gurnard, and Gunnel. They conducted 27 war patrols in Europe, especially near Bay of Biscay. However, the results were disappointing. Two encounters with U-boats, and a few tangles with blockade runners, but there is no record of any sinkings. The boats did participate in "Operation Torch" in North Africa. By mid 1943, all were transferred to the Pacific theater were it was thought they would be more profitably deployed.

There were no US sub operations in the Baltic that I know of.

[Bothersome]

Thanks Dread Knot that's good to know.

Thanks guys for your info and input on the attack.

One question eers75,
Do you have a general procedure for attacking the two ships simultaneously that is using manual targeting? For instance, if you knew the speed and the distance apart, do you have certain setups that you fire at per-determined angles or do you have to re-calculate and set up the TDC for the other target? Taking the time to set up the TDC is what I'm trying to avoid because by the time the set up is done, the firing is late.

Here is my MAIN beef with SH4 fleet boat targeting... When you send a new bearing to the TDC, it changes the direction of the ship. In real life, when the captain give you a bearing to set the TDC to, you don't change the ships course setting too. But in the game, that setting is being changed, so I have to constantly go back and reset the AOB/ship course setting to fix it back to the ships heading.

When playing the German side, this is done automatically. So you can shoot multiple targets pretty easy. If I shoot a ship at 45 degrees AOB, when I move the bearing to 10, the AOB changes to 80, keeping the ship on the same course. US side, the ship course would change to 35 degrees port which then has to be reset. Very annoying.

This is why I was thinking there might be a better way. To have per-determined angles to best fire at for multiple targets that have known properties.

[eers75]

Originally Posted by Bothersome

Thanks Dread Knot that's good to know.

Thanks guys for your info and input on the attack.

One question eers75,
Do you have a general procedure for attacking the two ships simultaneously that is using manual targeting? For instance, if you knew the speed and the distance apart, do you have certain setups that you fire at per-determined angles or do you have to re-calculate and set up the TDC for the other target? Taking the time to set up the TDC is what I'm trying to avoid because by the time the set up is done, the firing is late.

Actually to me this is the beautiful thing using the Okane shooting method. Its almost so easy that it feels like cheating almost. Ive actually been reading bits and pieces of his war patrols and I really see why he was one (the top I believe) of the most successful skippers in WW2.

So using the Okane method there are only a few things to keep in mind. Also there are a ton of better tutorials out there then what I can explain so im just going to give the highpoints here as im no expert.

1. Speed of convoy/ship (remember here that generally speaking convoys travel at the same speed just don't grab the speed of the escorts) so if you grab the speed of any merchant that will tell you the speed of all merchants and non-escort warships.

2. AOB = using Okane method is always a 90 degree angle from you so either 90 from your left or 90 from your right. Setting this up as the aob is as simple as taking your heading once you are in the correct position using Okane method of positioning yourself in a 90 degree intercept of either subtracting or adding 90 to your bow.

3. Range = Doesn't matter! Yes that's right you heard / read that correctly. Using Okane method you will set up a firing solution and when the ship crosses it, it doesn't matter if the ship is at 1000 or 6000 as the torpedo will intercept every point on the plot as the lead angle is built in to your range when you set it up.

So im not the best at teaching this as im still learning myself so I will let you know the steps I go through when attacking a convoy.

After spotting/detecting the convoy I plot the course of any merchant, then I grab the speed of any merchant. I draw out on the map a line of the course of the convoy that goes well ahead of the convoy. Then I speed ahead of the convoy far enough so I can position myself in position to be at a 90 degree intercept point. Once there im going to take my periscope up just enough so I can see the ticks on it. (doesn't even have to be above the waterline)

Then depending on if the convoy is coming from left-right or right-left I put the periscope at either 345 or 15 degrees. I put in the speed, aob, and maximum range which im using OTC 1.5 and its 6200.

Now im set up and its a waiting game of having my sound man tell me the bearing of either the closest merchant I want or what I typically do is use the sonar myself when ive got a very specific target in mind.

When the target crosses across 345 or 15 I fire, often I don't even raise the periscope if im in the middle of a convoy but I like to verify what im shooting so I do almost always raise it but just wanted you to know that using this method the periscope doesn't even have to be raised.

On multiple targets I accomplish this one of two ways which are both very quick and easy. The easiest is if the 2 targets I have are in line with each other I just fire when both go in front of either 345 or 15.

If they are separated a bit I will fire on the furthest target first when it crosses 345 or 15 with the slow speed torpedo and then I will quickly go to 5 degrees in front of my second and closer target and put the range in again for that bearing and use the fast speed on these torpedos for the second/closer target. I use 5 degrees ahead as by the time I position the periscope 5 degrees in front and click the range its usually crossing in front of my firing line. Remember here that when I do this that both targets will be fired on somewhere between 345 and 15 on the periscope. Example is the bow of my second target is at 005 so I will go to 010 and input the range of 6200 and when the part of the ship I want to hit crosses 010 I will fire on it.

Ive even used this method to fire on 3 targets at the same time with 2 fish each (when I get a sub that has 6 forward that is) and its that quick once you get the hang of this method. Using the Okane method to me the most important thing to me is getting the speed very accurate as your aob will always be 90 from left or right.

My longest kill using the Okane method is probably about 6000 out or so. Im sorry for the long post but wanted to explain myself clearly as I could. There are a ton of good tutorials in the stickies to get you better acquainted with this and other methods but I can tell you this method is so reliable that Im more surprised when I miss vs when I hit and before I used Okane method it was the exact opposite.

Hope this long post helps.

[Bothersome]

Yes thanks, it helps quite a bit. Allowed me to re-think the attack method and offer a vote in my mind as to how best to take on the convoy.

There is one thing I don't really like about a column attack. Shooting the first target first is going to alert the second target that the convoy is under attack. So his speed and course is no longer constant. This will most likely cause a miss. This is what I was trying to find a way to avoid.

Shooting a line (where the second ship is further away on the other side of the first) the O'Kane method works well. For an electric 29 knot torpedo and a ship spacing of 750 yards would make the firing solution fire the torpedoes 46 seconds apart. This is very doable.

Anyone have any optimizations on shooting a column and make simultaneous hits? After all, a small convoy will have a column before a line and there are more small convoys than large ones and are more likely to meet one.

Thanks again for the insight.

[TorpX]

Originally Posted by eers75

Actually to me this is the beautiful thing using the Okane shooting method. Its almost so easy that it feels like cheating almost. Ive actually been reading bits and pieces of his war patrols and I really see why he was one (the top I believe) of the most successful skippers in WW2.

This is a misconception about the 'Okane' method. O'Kane did not use the 'Okane' method. This method was developed by Rockin' Robbins, who named it in honor of Dick O'Kane. Same goes for the 'Cromwell' method.

[eers75]

Originally Posted by TorpX

This is a misconception about the 'Okane' method. O'Kane did not use the 'Okane' method. This method was developed by Rockin' Robbins, who named it in honor of Dick O'Kane. Same goes for the 'Cromwell' method.

WOW, definitely a misconception. Im shocked to be honest. I ordered "Clear the Bridge" the other day but its not here yet so ive been stuck trying to find snippets of war patrol reports from the web until it gets here. Ive become fascinated with Okane since returning to subsim as I never really tried to learn anything in depth years ago when I was here.

So I will look this up but why is it called the "Okane" method? Was it just something that Rockin Robbins really just made up? Im asking because I really thought that this method was one of the reasons that Okane was so successful.

Im not too proud to admit this is what I thought and im glad you pointed this out because that would have been my story

[Sniper297]

29 knots works out to about 979 yards per minute, 16 yards per second. Round it off since precision doesn't matter that much, 1000 yards per minute. Got three targets, ranges 1500 yards, 2000 yards, 2500 yards, you fire at the farthest first then wait - how long? 500 yards is 30 seconds, so fire two at the farthest, wait 30, fire two at the midrange, wait 30 more, fire at the closest. Not gonna be exact since the targets are moving so the range is opening or closing, if they're closing (which they should be or you're in a bad attack position) shave 5 seconds off and shift targets every 25 seconds. Fire at 12:00:00, 12:00:25, and 12:00:50, then at 12:02:00 the first fish has traveled 2000 yards, second 1600 (ABOUT!) yards, third 1200 yards. They should all impact at about the same time. Within 10 seconds of each other is good timing, but within 20 works fine too, even 30 gives little time to react.

[TorpX]

Originally Posted by eers75

WOW, definitely a misconception. Im shocked to be honest. I ordered "Clear the Bridge" the other day but its not here yet so ive been stuck trying to find snippets of war patrol reports from the web until it gets here. Ive become fascinated with Okane since returning to subsim as I never really tried to learn anything in depth years ago when I was here.

So I will look this up but why is it called the "Okane" method? Was it just something that Rockin Robbins really just made up? Im asking because I really thought that this method was one of the reasons that Okane was so successful.

Im not too proud to admit this is what I thought and im glad you pointed this out because that would have been my story

Don't feel bad. I'm sure many had thought the same thing.

RR developed his method and wanted a better name than XYZ method. I don't think he picked O'Kane for any particular reason.



O'Kane is my favorite, too. If you like Clear the Bridge, you should also get Wahoo.

O'Kane mainly used the TDC in the way it was meant to be used. That is, to it's full scope of functionality. By this, I mean he didn't rely on 'canned' approaches, where one must approach, or fire at certain angles. He had a little trick where he spread the torpedoes by putting the scope reticle on another part of the ship, so the crew would recompute with the new bearing. (As opposed to using a specific angle spread.) I don't know if he was the only one to do this or not.

Something else O'Kane did. He used model ships on a turn table to practice calling out Aob angles, and honing his skill in this regard.
[I believe he describes this in Wahoo.]