Swastikas and Germany in the modern day...

[Schroeder]

Originally Posted by Oberon

*sigh*

I think I'll take a break...

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by areo16

Yes, but your getting off track. I've stated that freedom of speech seems to be more robust in the states than it does in Germany. US does not outlaw the display of any symbols or flags in a public place unless they are a crime as to a physical threat to someone.

We all know that our freedom of speech isn't freedom, but we Americans try to test the limits day to day as we know there is a limit somewhere. The limits change according to place and time. However, the Sumpreme Court is more consistant than other judgements.

I fail to see where I bypass the topic. I just outlined that there is more to it and that freedom of speech has a more subtle complexity to it than just this - after all very superficial - German thing on swastikas.

[TarJak]

Originally Posted by Schroeder

I think I'll take a break...

Same. Shame its come to this.

[MH]

Tribesman is playing games.
It is all he does.

Weather he deserves the ban i don't know but he certainly should not be taken seriously.

A rest from Jewish this... Jewish that.. in every second post no matter if it has any connection with the issue at hand.
...Maybe he is trying to be internet shrink lol

Yeah.. Swastikas...what a mess.

Maybe some time in the future things will change but as long as there are people who don't want swastikas to be shoved in their faces or cant stand Wagner and so on...it is the heritage of ww2 we need to live in.
Most people don't care either way i guess...

I agree though that all the legislation in games is ridiculous.
You can commit virtual mass slaughter but swastika is no... no...

[Catfish]

Originally Posted by Aktungbby

A bit of a double standard arises though, when Washington squawks over the Japanese minister visiting the Yasokuni War shrine to honor Japan's dead...apparently German SS Dead aren't the same as the 'yellow peril's' war dead...

The former SS helped the US so much after WW2 .. from the Kameradenwerk to the OSS. All good as long as it was against the Russians.

[areo16]

Originally Posted by Skybird

I fail to see where I bypass the topic. I just outlined that there is more to it and that freedom of speech has a more subtle complexity to it than just this - after all very superficial - German thing on swastikas.

Apparently swastikas aren't that superficial if they are being banned in your country. Your widening the topic, when there is more than enough to discuss within the OP topic already.

[Bilge_Rat]

I fail to see how this is a freedom of speech issue.

Freedom of speech is never totally free, you are not able to say anything, anywhere with no restriction.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_...ech_exceptions

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._O%27Brien

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_...irst_Amendment)

Germany has chosen to ban the swastika symbol. Big deal. Let's move on.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by areo16

Apparently swastikas aren't that superficial if they are being banned in your country.

That causal conclusion is illogical. The ban itself holds no info on whether the issue is superfical an issue or not. But you m ake a big deal of it, while it is not really, and certainly is no indication in itself for a crackdown on free speech.

The swastika ban simply means so little for many Germans that many of us simply prefer to not care much for the "issue" at all. It's there, fine. If it wouldn't be there, most people would not care also, except maybe the Central Committee of German Jews. NSA scandal, Snowden revelations, the intimidation of sources for reporters, global communication control and privatesphere being hacked, and Patriot Act - that is what should get your attention much more, because it does much more damage in the present, leads much further than the swastika ban, and holds much more substantial a description of contemporary society and the way it is moving in the US. Compared to that, your indignation over partial bans of Nazi symbols in Germany is theatrical, sorry. If at least you would have started about the several eastgerman counties where the Nazis have become the dominant political faction again, then at least you would have had a relevant point, but - this...?

You remind me of this saying a bit, regarding the splinter in the other's eye, while ignoring the beam in one's own. There are more serious threats to free speech and free mind, than the German swastika ban.

[areo16]

Originally Posted by Skybird

That causal conclusion is illogical. The ban itself holds no info on whether the issue is superfical an issue or not. But you m ake a big deal of it, while it is not really, and certainly is no indication in itself for a crackdown on free speech.

The swastika ban simply means so little for many Germans that many of us simply prefer to not care much for the "issue" at all. It's there, fine. If it wouldn't be there, most people would not care also, except maybe the Central Committee of German Jews. NSA scandal, Snowden revelations, the intimidation of sources for reporters, global communication control and privatesphere being hacked, and Patriot Act - that is what should get your attention much more, because it does much more damage in the present, leads much further than the swastika ban, and holds much more substantial a description of contemporary society and the way it is moving in the US. Compared to that, your indignation over partial bans of Nazi symbols in Germany is theatrical, sorry. If at least you would have started about the several eastgerman counties where the Nazis have become the dominant political faction again, then at least you would have had a relevant point, but - this...?

You remind me of this saying a bit, regarding the splinter in the other's eye, while ignoring the beam in one's own. There are more serious threats to free speech and free mind, than the German swastika ban.

Whether you think this issue is minute or not doesn't make it any less valid of a discussion. A breach of freedom of speech, no matter how small, is still a breach. You can discuss the violations of FoS that you wish, and I'll discuss the ones that I wish. Or are you trying to limit my Freedom of Speech do debate this topic?

I think alot can be learned about the ban. It goes to show that wars last much longer than the treaties or unconditional surrenders that are supposed to end them take effect. Banning a symbol or a persons name is a stepping stone to banning much greater and more important things if the people are convinced that such a ban is just.

[MH]

Originally Posted by areo16

I think alot can be learned about the ban. It goes to show that wars last much longer than the treaties or unconditional surrenders that are supposed to end them take effect..

No..the collective sensitivity last longer than the war.
Weather it all make sense is another thing but that is how it works.
Those restrictions had been made by people who had to live through ww2 at the time , the gaming was not their concern at the time.
USA on another hand was less affected by the war , the reason why people felt more comfortable with the issue but then i would not wave red flag 50s or 60s.

Since a lot of time has passed since ww2 those issues can be revisited i guess , if enough people see them as pressing matter.
No body is limiting your freedom of speech , you debating this issue after all ..right?

[Gammelpreusse]

Originally Posted by areo16

I think alot can be learned about the ban. It goes to show that wars last much longer than the treaties or unconditional surrenders that are supposed to end them take effect. Banning a symbol or a persons name is a stepping stone to banning much greater and more important things if the people are convinced that such a ban is just.

Welcome to that realisation. And yes, it is indeed about a much greater topic. It's all about getting rid of national socialism as a legit political force.

If the reasons for that are not obvious to you, I can try to give you a short history lesson.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by areo16

Or are you trying to limit my Freedom of Speech do debate this topic?

I question your motives, and/or reasonability. To focus on this little thing "banning swastikas in Germany" and make a big, up-blown deal of it, while ignoring much more actual and massive threats to and de facto limitations of free speech, that effect all the West and form political realities, is embarassing. The ban of the swastika in many contexts in Germany, means little if not even nothing to most germans, and to the world. But the erosion of the ability to think freely and independently, the erosion of the preconditions of free speech in journalistic research and the other examples I listed, means a thousand times more for our present, and does a thousand times more damage right now, and not just to one country, but all the West, and beyond.

Take a sheet of paper, or many, and start making ink drops on it. Do so until you have made several millions, a two digit number of millions, and try to imagine that every ink drop is a dead body.

Then, after many many many hours, you maybe realise why some people maybe agree with the idea to not give an ideology that stockpiled so many dead bodies any space to unfold again, and why that has nothing to do with a general assault against free speech.

Many Allied soldiers, resisting people, and innocent victims from many nations, including Germans, let their lives to overthrow the Third Reich. They must turn in their graves in despair when listening to you. Becasue they realise that their sacrifices, according to you, have been in vein.

I hereby file a proposal that Nazis should be but onto the list of species enjoying special protection and conservation rights. They too deserve our tolerance and hopes for a better coexistence.

[Skybird]

Am 10. Oktober 1945 verbot der Alliierte Kontrollrat die NSDAP, alle ihre Gliederungen und angeschlossenen Verbände und deren Symbole. In den Nürnberger Prozessen 1946 wurde die NSDAP mit allen Untergliederungen zur „verbrecherischen Organisation“ erklärt.


In der Bundesrepublik Deutschland galten zunächst sämtliche Gesetze der Alliierten zur „Befreiung des deutschen Volkes vom Nationalsozialismus und Militarismus“ aufgrund Artikel 139 des Grundgesetzes weiter. Sie wurden abgelöst, indem unter anderem Friedensverrat, Hochverrat und Gefährdung des demokratischen Rechtsstaates (§ 80 bis § 92b) als Straftatbestände in das Strafgesetzbuch eingefügt wurden. In diesem Rahmen bedroht § 86a das öffentliche „Verwenden von Kennzeichen verfassungswidriger Organisationen“ zum Zweck ihrer Verbreitung mit einer Freiheitsstrafe bis zu drei Jahren oder einer Geldstrafe. Absatz 3 nimmt solche Propagandamittel oder Handlungen von der Strafbarkeit aus, die „der staatsbürgerlichen Aufklärung, der Abwehr verfassungswidriger Bestrebungen, der Kunst oder der Wissenschaft, der Forschung oder der Lehre, der Berichterstattung über Vorgänge des Zeitgeschehens oder der Geschichte oder ähnlichen Zwecken“ dienen.

Note that what I said on property rights is effective here. The german laws rule that the use of symbols representing anti-constitutional ideologies and intentions are banned from use in the public sphere. Free speech is not about showing one's speech into others' ears just anywhere, at any time. Also, the display of such symbols in context that are educational, in defence of the constituioonal order of the state, scientific/historic research, reports in historixc documentations, are perfectly allowed.


In games, this is usually forbidden, since a game like IL-2 may be recreatinal, but is not really educational, although many gamers try to upgrade their hobby and to give it a better reputation by thinking of multiplayer sessions in propeller machines as something that "educates" them on historic contexts. Which is a glorious and somewhat megalomaniac self-deception, in my eyes.


Also note, that the basis for the later German legislation - has been US-American laws first imposed on Germany and later demanded for Germany by the US themselves.

[Spook27]

As an offline player of both SH3/SH4/SH5 and Il21946, I can promise you there is an enormous amount of research among serious skinners and campaign/mission makers. The Offline Community is at the heart of the Il2 mods, not the Onliners so much, but it depends on your attitude: Silent Hunter, for example, is part strategy 'game' and 'historic simulation' - Il2 is also primarily a 'simulator' rather than a 'game'.

This is such a fascinating subject with so many ways to view it, may I give you a piece from my recent book on Grand Prix Racing history?

This is directly related to a section on German engineering dominance in the 1930s and the revision of history, particularly through image retouching, that goes on today.

"Author’s note:
The German racing cars of this period usually carried a couple of ‘swastika’ markings. Actually, the infamous logo of the Nazi party was a reversed swastika, originally a Phoenician sun symbol. This is a matter of historical record and in Germany today the swastika is an illegal symbol, although display for academic, educational, artistic or journalistic reasons is allowed.

However, all over the modern world photographic reference material is now widely 're-touched' to airbrush out the swastika (look really closely at contemporary photographs and you can often see where it has been altered). It seems that despite the acceptance for reasonable depiction, within a historic context, many companies and individuals are self-censoring!

Is it right to remove certain uncomfortable aspects of history while retaining those we wish to project? Should we be able to confront the historical truth and deal with it, or is it necessary instead to consume a revised edition, and to ignore the warnings of Wells, Huxley and Orwell? Namely; where does such shameful censorship end and who decides what is safe for you to see?

During the 1930s and 1940s Nazi interest and financing of German industry and sport permeated the entire society and we should not indulge in collective amnesia. Amidst the controversy over the issue of self-censorship, born of the desire to anticipate and avoid imagined offence, it has also been pointed out by modern academics, restorers, model makers, writers, artists and many others interested in truth; that those who suppress or alter the historic record usually become the thing they fear.

Despite the good intentions of ‘Political Correctness', distortion of the historic record is itself grossly offensive and dangerous, dishonouring history and insulting the memory of its victims."


Spook27 - AKA - SAS~Monty27

[Skybird]

You know what would be educational in racing cars simulated form that era? An indepth-explanation of the engineering nad technolgy used, and the history of that technicals unfolding. A description of the cars' unique behaviors, and representing that in the game. A detailed simulation of the functions, and driving characteristics.

Whether there is a swastika depicted, teaches nobody nowhere nothing.

I found the argument that displaying swastikas is part of historic education, absurd since along time.

Same is true for SH3 or IL-2. Who cares whether there is a swastika in the flag's emblem, or a green triangle? It does nothing for your education, only reminds you of what a swastika is looking like.

What is to be known when using swastika symbols, is the context in which they were used. The ideology they represent, and what it meant and what it did. The political developments, the reasons why it ended in disaster. But that you do not learn by painting swastikas. But by reading history and political books. Or does anyone here seriously want to argue that spraying graffitis on the wall to the entrance to the subway station helps education on the technique of daVinci'S painting? Or does it help to write prose or fiction? Calculating math formulas?

You said modders spend a lot of time in research to get their models's skins right. Fine, nothing wrong with that. But a paint scheme does not give anyone more education when watching it, then I got education on aircraft technology when gluing together a plane model by Revel in my youth. It may be about immersion. But then it is immersion, still no education in an intellectual meaning.

Was Prince Harry educating when wearing his Nazi uniform on a party many years ago...? What have people elarned about that era when seeing him, different to how his uniform looked like (which was not even that accurate a copy, if I recall it correctly)...?

I think many people mistake entertainment and recreation with education here.

Same I would say on the festivities sometimes to be seen, where some historic battles are replayed by volunteers, and when being asked they say they do it because of teaching history. Nonsense. It is about the spectaculum, and about the boys in adult men wanting to play cowboys and indians again. Okay, nothing bad in that, if people want to do that. But let's call it by its real name, then: entertainment, not education. Like some people make a fetish of a pop star an arrange their whole life around it, others do the same with the Roman legions, or the Nazis, or the American civil war.