Swastikas and Germany in the modern day...

[Friscobay]

Originally Posted by Oberon

Theres just gotta be some kind of Precious Bodily Fluids thing going on there...

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Friscobay

Theres just gotta be some kind of Precious Bodily Fluids thing going on there...

It happens, but in this case...well...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaska_...h_Enabling_Act

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America...elations_Forum

[areo16]

Originally Posted by Gammelpreusse

In regards to german soldiers, that is like asking for rape victims to be praised. Most people back then went through hell and for what? Some gangsters with grandeur complexes. Everything in regards to bravery they may have shown was tainted to the core by their very own leadership. They and their love for the nation got abused, used, that simple. Would you want to be reminded of that every year, no matter in what light it would be shown?

I remember my gradfather, a distinguished soldier, holder of the iron cross 2 class and commander of a quad 20mm AAA unit, who severd in France, Sicily and Italy, in Monte Cassino amongst other locations, breaking out in tears when asked about WW2.

Quote in regards to Hitler "That damn a**hole!"

He neither got nor wanted any appreciation for that whole affair.

Btw., the denazification after the war was not very effective in regards to actual "brainwashing". Nazis stayed on board throughout all levels of society. National Socialism was a good idea badly implemented was a regular point of view well into the 70ies. What really brought the turnaround in how the country dealt with it's past was initiated by the 68ers, as mentioned before.

I can't understand this part. Many soldiers were not Nazis. Many died to defend their homeland. I do not understand how you cannot praise them for serving to defend the home you live in. This seems counterproductive to me to raise a generation in depression and regret. I don't think it instills the necessary morality and pride that is necessary to create a prosperous generation, politicians or businessmen. It would leave young generations searching for an identity. I don't agree with this. A middle ground should be found.

[TarJak]

Good luck with that. When the waterhole is poisoned, all who drink from it are tainted in some way or another.

That said, there are still some who think they were right to fight not only for the Fatherland, but also for Hitler and his cronies. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulrichsberg_gathering

Originally Posted by areo16

I can't understand this part. Many soldiers were not Nazis. Many died to defend their homeland. I do not understand how you cannot praise them for serving to defend the home you live in. This seems counterproductive to me to raise a generation in depression and regret. I don't think it instills the necessary morality and pride that is necessary to create a prosperous generation, politicians or businessmen. It would leave young generations searching for an identity. I don't agree with this. A middle ground should be found.

Prosperous generation?
Biggest economy in Europe, 4th largest GDP in the world?

[areo16]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

Prosperous generation?
Biggest economy in Europe, 4th largest GDP in the world?

You have a point. But is there a since of identity and pride?

Also, do WW2 vets get benefits from the government and are their associations like in the states to help them do things and give them assistance?

[Mittelwaechter]

No one should be praised for killing someone in the first place.

My government denies me to kill the people I want to, but enforces me to kill the people it wants to be killed? Some old politicians decide, in the economy's interest and following its orders, what's worth fighting, killing and dying for?

Burning civilians on a tanker alive with a torpedo is glorious? I need this to find my identity?
Piloting a bomber and killing women and children from a few kilometers above with explosives is an act of honour?
Killing suspects remotley controlled - without proper trial, while accepting bystanding innocent casualties as colletral damage is a foundation for a prosperous generation?

Imagine your father attacking your neigbour with some acid. Would you praise him for defending your home while trying to kill the alarmed police officer knocking at your door?

We should finally teach our youngsters that war is no option. Never!
Our fathers failed in this.

Originally Posted by areo16

You have a point. But is there a since of identity and pride?

What do you mean by identity?
There are lots of germans living in town they all have different identities, but you can also identify a lot of them as germans just like you can identify a lot of the Americans as Americans
Pride in what?
Pride in the nation state that existed between 1933-45 or just a general local pride?
Some of the Bavarians in town do dress up in their local outfits on a sunday when they go drinking. Is that their identity or pride and how does it relate to the state which existed in the 30s and 40s?
On another note a friend has a picture of her grandfather on her mantelpiece, he just happens to be dressed as a Scharfuhrer.
Which is funny considering her politics are exceptionally liberal even by European standards.

[Aktungbby]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

An individual made a comment about education, the individual was mentioned, education was mentioned, it was the preceeding post, how could you miss it?

Further to your Americans don't believe in banning books angle.
The list of the top 100 books some Americans want banned.
http://www.ala.org/bbooks/top-100-ba...ooks-2000-2009
William Powells book is on it again, plus a german tale of WW2 again.

Including the Adventures of Huckleberry Finn by Mark Twain; holding steady at # 14 But our best comedians still vie for the Kennedy Center Mark Twain Award for Humor.

[MGR1]

Originally Posted by areo16

I can't understand this part. Many soldiers were not Nazis. Many died to defend their homeland. I do not understand how you cannot praise them for serving to defend the home you live in. This seems counterproductive to me to raise a generation in depression and regret. I don't think it instills the necessary morality and pride that is necessary to create a prosperous generation, politicians or businessmen. It would leave young generations searching for an identity. I don't agree with this. A middle ground should be found.

Quite simple, really. Yes, they fought for their country, but that country was governed by an aberration. They fought for a lie, and a hideous one at that.

That aberration also caused enormous suffering, not just in those territories that Germany invaded, but also on the German population itself. The catch for the German's is that their suffering was self inflicted because they allowed themselves to be duped, or brainwashed, into supporting that aberration.

It's like my country, Britain. The British Empire is not viewed as being something to be proud of, if it is thought about at all. We suffer from a post-Imperial cringe of epic proportions. To the extent that the United Kingdom could, at some point in the future, dissolve as the last act of de-colonisation.

Mike.

[Gammelpreusse]

Originally Posted by areo16

I can't understand this part. Many soldiers were not Nazis. Many died to defend their homeland. I do not understand how you cannot praise them for serving to defend the home you live in. This seems counterproductive to me to raise a generation in depression and regret. I don't think it instills the necessary morality and pride that is necessary to create a prosperous generation, politicians or businessmen. It would leave young generations searching for an identity. I don't agree with this. A middle ground should be found.

As you can see, prosperity and success can be generated quite well without, matter of proof Germany (and Japan) today. In fact looking into the future and seeing possebilities, adapting to the world as "it is", instead of constantly looking back and obsessivly trying to live up to precieved standarts set by former generations can be very liberating and productive.

You confuse a simple lack of praise and a good dose of self reflection and crisicism with depression and regret. There is a huge difference. There also is a lot to be proud of in Germany today and the generations that rebuild a country which was in utter ruins.

In my observation, the UK and the US are both suffering from WW2 syndrome, looking at the wrold from a position that by now is 70 years old and seriously out of date.

[MGR1]

Originally Posted by Gammelpreusse

In my observation, the UK and the US are both suffering from WW2 syndrome, looking at the wrold from a position that by now is 70 years old and seriously out of date.

Perhaps not with the UK as such, don't mistake David Cameron's cheesy remarks after that put down by that Russian official last year with general public opinion. We know that we're a small, relatively insignificant nation with a dodgy and mismanaged economy. It's just that our government still harbours delusions of grandeur.

Heck, we don't even know what it means to be British these days, what with devolution and the Scottish Independence Referendum muddying the waters!

The last census gave indications that it was the ethnic minorities who were most likely to label themselves British. Us natives are starting to think of ourselves as English, Scottish, Welsh etc in increasing numbers.

Worst case scenario, the UK could break up at some point in the next hundred years.

But, that's digressing from the main subject of the thread.....

Mike.

[Gammelpreusse]

Originally Posted by MGR1

Perhaps not with the UK as such, don't mistake David Cameron's cheesy remarks after that put down by that Russian official last year with general public opinion. We know that we're a small, relatively insignificant nation with a dodgy and mismanaged economy. It's just that our government still harbours delusions of grandeur.

Heck, we don't even know what it means to be British these days, what with devolution and the Scottish Independence Referendum muddying the waters!

The last census gave indications that it was the ethnic minorities who were most likely to label themselves British. Us natives are starting to think of ourselves as English, Scottish, Welsh etc in increasing numbers.

Worst case scenario, the UK could break up at some point in the next hundred years.

But, that's digressing from the main subject of the thread.....

Mike.

Small nor insignificant by what standarts? Ye olde empire? Yes. By modern industrial and prosperity standarts, compared to the rest of the world, also in regards to political soft power? No, not at all.

And I seriously doubt the UK will fall apart. The world would be poorer for it.

[Gammelpreusse]

Originally Posted by MGR1

Quite simple, really. Yes, they fought for their country, but that country was governed by an aberration. They fought for a lie, and a hideous one at that.

That aberration also caused enormous suffering, not just in those territories that Germany invaded, but also on the German population itself. The catch for the German's is that their suffering was self inflicted because they allowed themselves to be duped, or brainwashed, into supporting that aberration.

It's like my country, Britain. The British Empire is not viewed as being something to be proud of, if it is thought about at all. We suffer from a post-Imperial cringe of epic proportions. To the extent that the United Kingdom could, at some point in the future, dissolve as the last act of de-colonisation.

Mike.

Sorry, missed that post. Yeah, you nailed it pretty well.

[CCIP]

I just don't understand what there is to be proud of, besides some tactical successes and individual cameraderie under fire. And that's always been acknowledged. Otherwise, it was an offensive war started by Germany, and it ended in total strategic failure. Had they not taken up arms and followed orders, millions would've lived. It was a pointless, stupid exercise started by a fascist madman, and people should be rightly ashamed for following him. That's the only right lesson here.

IMO even in the West, the myth of the "good war" or "moral war" needs to be buried. World War II was a horrible excercise in mass murder, on all sides. Romanticizing it isn't what we need to do. We need to remember it. We need to know the veterans stories. We need to respect them for being human, not for anything else. And we need to take care of old, sick, traumatized people regardless of what they did during the war, or whether they were even there.

As for national pride, I fail to see what we have to gain by that, because we live in a global world today. National pride and ambition was what led everyone into WWII to begin with, so why suddenly romanticize it?

I think Germany learned the right lessons. And the results have been good. Why assume that something is missing there today?

BTW, I personally don't agree with the swastika bans in the form that they exist, but if there's public support for those, so be it.