Huge pro-EU rally grips Ukraine

[Dread Knot]

Why does it not surprise me that the ex-community organizer is getting his clock cleaned by the ex-KGB agent in international affairs? I guess they don't teach much realpolitik in community organizer 101.

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by Dread Knot

Why does it not surprise me that the ex-community organizer is getting his clock cleaned by the ex-KGB agent in international affairs? I guess they don't teach much realpolitik in community organizer 101.

I was going to post a picture. Instead, ill just say, Google image search "Obama vs Putin". Too many pics, not enough space to post.

edit:
Nevermind, found one!

[Schroeder]

Originally Posted by Dread Knot

Why does it not surprise me that the ex-community organizer is getting his clock cleaned by the ex-KGB agent in international affairs? I guess they don't teach much realpolitik in community organizer 101.

What do you expect him to do? Start a war over Crimea? Install sanctions that will backfire badly on the American economy?
Besides our non community manager politicians aren't doing much better than him so he is at least not more incompetent than our guys and gals.

[Oberon]

Damned if you do and damned if you don't. That's pretty much the situation for the wests leaders in this scenario. No matter what any of them do it we will judge it as the wrong action.

[August]

I'm thinking that within the year this will be repeated in eastern Ukraine.

[nikimcbee]

I got a new threat we could issue. Draws line in sand, Get out of Ukraine or we'll include the Russian Federation in Obamacare.

[nikimcbee]

Wait a minute, hold the phone... Where have all of the Obama-believers gone? (not that I miss them)

I blame Bush.

[BossMark]

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by nikimcbee

Wait a minute, hold the phone... Where have all of the Obama-believers gone? (not that I miss them)

I blame Bush.

Probably got bored of banging their heads against the brick wall and left. Or perhaps they don't see this thread as an ample opportunity to bash Obama and perhaps see it as a discussion on the crisis in the Ukraine and not one on American politics.

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by August

I'm thinking that within the year this will be repeated in eastern Ukraine.

I'm not understanding why Obummer has to open his yap about the Ukraine to begin with. How does any of what is going on there relevant to us? What business is it of ours, and why the hell should we care? That's the part i'm missing. We have PLENTY of problems of our own.

Originally Posted by nikimcbee

I got a new threat we could issue. Draws line in sand, Get out of Ukraine or we'll include the Russian Federation in Obamacare.

Putin would probably do what he's doing now. Laugh.

[Skybird]

In German, sorry, but a very insightful and very very recommendable piece, if you can understand German a bit, I urge you to listen in, it is nine minutes.

http://www1.wdr.de/mediathek/audio/w...dioplayer.html

This is an telephone interview with Jörg Baberowski, professor for Easteuropean history, about the ignorance the West shows regarding the importance of identity and its historic roots, the fact that Ukraine is not a state with a long history but an artificial creation founded 1991 where people did not deny their sympathy for the old empire but voted for sovereignty only in hope for better living conditions, and that Russia is not a single ethnic state as well, but multi-ethnic state where the majority of people still identifies itself with the former empirial spirit.

I indeed think that the West acts totally blind and stupid in this matter, and of course with its usual messianic arrogance and self-glorifying self-perception. We demonise Putin and think without him all Russia's many ethnic groups all of a sudden would tick in western fashion. Bullsh!t! Have we nothing learned from the fails our interventions resulted in in recent years?

There is no Ukrainian, separate identity, there never was, the Ukraine is an artificial creation that has a deep split in its heart between the Western aeras where people were parts of the former Poland and the multi-ethnic Danube empire,. and the East, which always was Russia. Many people in the Ukraine have family members in Russia - and we wonder why they feel close to Russia and vote for Russia in a referendum? There is no democratic tradition established in the Ukraine as well, after any elections, the winner started to throw his opponents into prison, Yanukovich did, Tymochenko did - and both of them do not speak "Ukrainian" when they talk to the crowds, but Russian. Klitschko practices that as well, Baberowski points out.

The West I think is totally misled, in total denial of historic realities, and in total refusal of learning lessons from history over this.

Its the first time I read or hear somebody in Western media reflecting about the real history behind the Ukraine and the importance of ethnic identity for why so many people still identify themselves with the former empire and refuse the West. Already when the Ukraine was artificially founded in 1991, most people did not do so because of sympathy for the West or for democracy, but because they hoped for improving living conditions, a hope that failed them.

I also am with the professor where he states at the end that it does not matter at all whether you like Putin or not, but that you have to come to terms with reality. Putin is there - and he enjoys a very big majority in support not just over the Ukraine, but in general, and currently is more popular than ever before. This we finally have to realise and accept. Russia is not a mono-ethnic but a multi-ethnic state - fact. Most people still identify themselves with the former empire - fact. That many Ukrainians (whether they are ethnic Russians or not) prefer Russia over the West, again is this - fact. Also, it is only natural that they do, and many have roots leading back to Russia, have living family there - fact. But we in the West think by the same stupid patterns by which we have messed up the Balkans, and the Middle East before, we create artificial borderlines that ignore cultural and ethnic realities on the ground, we force together what does not match, and split what yearns to stay together. And some of us even think "Hey, we are the wonderful Westerners, it cannot be imagined that there are people who do not want to be as great and wonderful as ourselves! They all crave to be like us, and when they criticise us, they do so only because they are greedy for how wonderful and rich we are!" After so many years I'm so absolutely sick and tired of this blind arrogance, I could vomit such people into their arrogant wide grinning faces.

And we complain about Putin finally having enough of Western folly and arrogance...? Honestly, I think, the biggest idiots in all this - and the most unscrupulous ones! - is not Putin, or the Russians, but it is ourselves, the West. On American behalf, I can take into account that it is brutal politics to increase the influence of American gas companies and push back the Russians, but whether that is a flattering compliment, can be doubted.

What to do next? I think the best would be if the Ukraine, this artificial creation without any history of independent sovereignity, is being split up, into thew West that before was part of Poland and the Austrian empire, and the East that always has been Russian. The borders between both should be lose and not tight, to respect the simply fact that many people in both parts have social links to the other half of the former Ukraine as well, and that even in the Wets many people have links and even roots in Russia. But to force these two things together in one national entity, like artificial borderlines have been drawn on maps in the Middle East so often, leading to notorious conflicts and later wars and breaking-ups, imo is the worst of all solutions.

I have almost no doubt that nobody in the West who has some influence in policy-making and the major media, will aloow that to happenb. Our riuthless stupdity will be pushed by us to the utmost maximum, no doubt. And all the time we will blame it on big bad boy Putin. And while we do so, we only show that most of us are absolutely cluel-less about Russia, and the Ukraine.

[Dread Knot]

Looks like the breakaway part of Moldova, the majority Russian Trans-Dniester, wants to join the party too.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26627236

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Oberon

Probably got bored of banging their heads against the brick wall and left. Or perhaps they don't see this thread as an ample opportunity to bash Obama and perhaps see it as a discussion on the crisis in the Ukraine and not one on American politics.

Ukraine is an issue that is burning on Europe's doorstep, not Americas. And that is why we should resist American demands to push the Russians, because the first and direct consequences will hit us, not the Americans, and it will be us paying most of the price, not the Americans. The US does not compare to the trade ammounts we do, especially us Germans, with Russia. The US will not be directly affected as long as the Russians do not unleash a war against the dollar and US bonds - which they are capable of, I think. Even more, it may be in American interest to stirr a conflict between Russia and Europe, it may increase chances for US energy companies that sympathise with the idea to build huge terminals for shipping gas to Europe - at much higher cost for Europe, of course (shipping gas by ship is much more expensive than via pipeline) and leading europe from dependence from Russia into dependence from America.

Diversification is in Europe's interest here. And probably a return (in Germany) to nuclear energy. Well, tell that a romantic German. You'll get chased through the streets in no time. We want our energy instabile, insecure, and expensive! Deindustrialization is the ordinary German's motto - in full ignorance of our export and financial realities. We compensate the cutting of scientific classes at school with anti-aggression trainings, classes in tolerance, and courses in creative dancing. No joke, its reality in more and more schools over here.

Infantiler Affentanz, das alles.

[CCIP]

Meanwhile, let's take a look at how Putin has managed to quash some of the opposition and silence internal opposition to this (obviously very bad) move in Russia. It's through a clever piece of rhetorical/sociopolitical engineering that Western politicians could only dream of. Here it is from an opposition perspective (in Russian):

http://slon.ru/russia/2011_2014_bols...-1071447.xhtml

Translated it for you here:

2011-2014: THE GREAT PUTIN TEST

[This situation] could be framed as a test, in which there are a series of questions – there are two possible answers to each. And while the questions are a bit strange, answering them essentially straightforward. The first question was asked in December 2011 – the people were faced with the fact of rather questionable elections to the state Duma [parliament], and asked whether they agreed with their results. Those who replied that they agreed were immediately left in peace, while the others were asked a new question: here is Pussy Riot in the cathedral of Christ the Saviour, singing about Mother Mary and Putin – what should be done about that? The first option was to agree that those girls must necessarily be put in jail, to accept that the relationship between the Russian Orthodox Church and the state are not subject to discussion, let alone revision – that Orthodoxy must have a strong fist, and that spirituality is a political factor. Those who agreed with that were also left in peace, and those who did not […] effectively voted against Christianity.

Then there was the question of adoption of Russian children by Americans. The question was formulated as follows: in America, Russian children are typically dying, and those who are at fault for it are left without punishment – so do you agree to put an end to this horrible practice and ban adoptions by Americans? And those who said that they don’t agree voluntarily put a tag on themselves which effectively said that they have no sense of sympathy for the deaths of poor Russian children.

Then there was a question of “gay propaganda”, and those who answered negatively were labeled as supporters of gay marriage or worse. Then there was “territorial integrity”: do we put people in jail for debating it? Those who said no to imprisonment for that – they’re clearly in favour of dismemberment of the Russian state. There was also a question of the war: was Stalin right in everything, was the Red Army faultless? And those who said that no, not in everything – obviously a revisionist, a traitor.

For two years, while posing these loaded questions to the politically-active segment of society, Putin’s administration methodically and ruthlessly decimated the ranks of those who were ready to voice their disagreement with Putin’s course of policy. In December 2011, a loyal citizen could still go out to protest on Bolotnaya square if he was concerned about some irregularities in elections (which, in effect, were inconsequential anyway). Two years later, when the pressure of these first questions was combined with the load of the rest of them – Orthodox Christianity, gays, foreign adoption, war, territorial integrity – the price of holding an anti-Putin position rose by several times. The first Bolotnaya protest didn’t demand much sacrifice from a participant, but in these intervening years everything has changed. And this is to say nothing of the risk of losing your job or going to jail – no, it works simply even at the level of this: to say that you’re against Putin, you must also sign underneath a whole package of other statements, each of which demands additional courage – especially in case you don’t really don’t really have anything to say in favour of promoting gay relations, don’t think that Leningrad should’ve surrendered to the Germans, and don’t think that the mother of Christ is the correct addressee for qualms against Putin.

I’m listing these questions now that not so long ago were subject to lively and active debate, and now I feel rather trivial for even remembering them, because the next question on Putin’s test – this is already a few orders above everything that came before it. It’s not just about propaganda – now everything is about real lives, real people, real everything – Ukraine and especially Crimea. The Crimeans who voted to join Russia are celebrating. If you’re against Putin – now you’re against those people too, you say to their face: hey you, I don’t want to see you in Russia, I don’t need you, stay in Ukraine, for the sake of your and my freedom. Signing under this statement is even tougher than under gay marriages or American adoptions. Those who went out to protest against war in Moscow on Saturday – there were fewer of them than at rallies on Bolotnaya and Sakharov a couple of years earlier, but among them, it seems likely that there are no incidental people. Here are only those who are against Putin under any conditions. Those, whose dislike of the present Russian authority is stronger than anything in the world. These people on the boulevards are the products of a hellish, thoroughly brutal selection by Putin’s technocrats. Those, who in the course of two years passed through this incredible test. Those who didn’t give up, didn’t back down, didn’t change their minds. Different numbers are quoted by the media, but in any case they are several thousand men and women, citizens of the Russian Federation.

And perhaps a far more interesting question than the future of Crimea is: what plans does Putin have for these people, what will he do with them, how does he plan to coexist with them in the same country? It’s clear that in the Russia that Putin needs, these people shouldn’t exist in principle, but they’re here, they exist, so what to do with them? Judging from the set of extravagant actions which we observed in the last few weeks, Putin may also have some ideas for the prospects facing the anti-Putin minority, and it’s doubtful that among these ideas there’s a single one that could be described as nice – but however horrible these prospects look, one still wants to know how precisely how Putin plans to reduce this minority to a zero. The moral bankruptcy of the leaders of December 2011, who once agreed to this test, can already be considered an irreversible fact. And so these people on the boulevards, they’re facing Putin one on one – such is our tragic model of sociopolitical order.

As a Russian myself, I have no illusions about history and identity. Sure, most Crimeans want to be in Russia. That's not the issue, the issue is manner and spirit in which all of this is conducted, and the repercussions it will have. It's not worth it. And more disturbingly, it's all part of a game to make everyone shut up and accept things as they are, no matter how rash or unjust.

Another referendum is happening quietly in the meantime: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26604044

I'd like Putin & co. to learn some lessons from this instead.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by CCIP

And more disturbingly, it's all part of a game to make everyone shut up and accept things as they are, no matter how rash or unjust.

It has been like that with any Ukrainian leadership voted for since 1991.

Another referendum is happening quietly in the meantime: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26604044

The interesting part is in the sentence saying that the referendum is not legally binding.

I'd like Putin & co. to learn some lessons from this instead.

Maybe he has: that there has been enough pointless babbling going on, and that there will never be a government inKiew willing to seriously negotiate over letting the Crimea go, no mjatter any refrendum there. Since how many years is Kiew now dancing on his nose? Mind you, Putin played tough on the cmrinals who made it to oiligarchs in the Yeltzin years, he did so when they started to attempt translating financial wealth into more political power in state affairs than was to be tolerated by the state- and that includes this now-declared saint and darling of the West, Chodorkowsky, who was a Saul and no behaves like a Paul. The West has a very short memory. It was the only way to show the organised crime threatening to completely hijack the state the red line and bring corruption back onto a level where politics nevertheless could provide a minimum of functionality and authority.

Could you imagine to run Russia and keep it together with a babble show like the EU parliament? Do Western leaders not act autocratic when ignoring laws and violating treaties in order to boost the EU and the Euro? The Russian guy uses a rubberstick and riot police. The European guy uses sweet lies and bribery that the bribed victim later has to pay back - with taxes (protection money), rising debts and money devaluation (expropriation), and interests and interests' interest. The one leaves office and later comes back. The other gets not elected, and claims another offices again somewhere else. Both are impossible to get rid of. In Russia things stay as threy are due to state command and order. In the West they stay the same since decades although people vote.

In both spheres, since this is a physically limited world, the result necessarily must be total collapse. The only difference is the different kinds of illusions people have.