Gold price manipulated since longer than assumed?

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Betonov

If you can't beat them, join them.

Any idea how to predict when they'll inflate and deflate prices
There's €200 in my drawer waiting to become €2000

Send it over to me and I'll put it to good use

Back OT...any tradeable commodity is used for profitable gain and always will do as long as there is a buyer and a seller within the marketplace.

[MH]

Gold price manipulated since longer than assumed?

any evidence on the how...because if i had a ton of gold in the basement i would be very happy reading this.

Who is keeping the prices down and letting china buy all this stuff?
Why don't others buy the gold same way china does?

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

Send it over to me and I'll put it to good use

Back OT...any tradeable commodity is used for profitable gain and always will do as long as there is a buyer and a seller within the marketplace.

That is why it is of paramount importance to have a currency that is indeed a freely traded commodity just like any other and that has its value not regulated and fixed by governments, but market participants. Only then the "value" of the money actually has a meaning. And only then prices have a meaning. And only then businessmen and traders can make reliable calculations on their cost-gains-balances. In other words, the general status of an economy is reflected ion the price fixing on a free market, and the value of its currencies. And when you want to hide the real status of a desolate economy, you have to prevent all that and command which price the currency should have - by that, you distort all, precent all, disguise all.

But such a commodity currency that is decided about by market and private people, would mean that politicians have limited means available only to finance their spending frenzies by which they bribe the masses to vote for them. So they always will move all heaven and earth and tell just any lie to prevent such a currency and make people believe in paper money instead.

Also, paper money is a precondition for the giant redistribution scheme of real values from bottom to top that is happening today. The word to watch out for is "Cantillon effect". It makes sure that the rich get richer and the poor get poorer just by printing more FIAT money and pumping it into the system.

That gold has been used as such a widely accepted commodity money, is only because of past markets decided so and people made good experiences with the physical availability and ability to manage it. It is practical to handle, can be turned into smaller or bigger coins, and if a symbol on a thaler is declared invalid and the currency changes to another name, you melt your thaler and still have gold that has not lost one bit of its bartering power than if it were not a necklace but the same amount of gold pressed into the form of a coin, also, it cannot rot and does not corrode. It could as well be plant seeds, or seashells or bones, or tobacco, pieces of dried bacon and whatever else man has used as token for a currency system. But people found out that all these things were not as practical and valuable to them as precious metals turned out to be, and that they did not offer the practical advantages of using metal instead of furs or dried bacon. And so, gold it was.

The Chinese were the first to try a paper money system, I think in the 12th century. It collapsed. And since then, ALL paper money system tried in any part of the world have collapsed. The inflation of paper money is nothing else than what ancient kins did when they reduced the amount of precious metals in their gold and silver thalers, and replaced them with inferior iron, to increase the amount of thalers and give the illusion of having more wealth that they then spend. It is betrayal, theft, and always it is snowballing.

[MH]

The Chinese were the first to try a paper money system, I think in the 12th century. It collapsed. And since then, ALL paper money system tried in any part of the world have collapsed. The inflation of paper money is nothing else than what ancient kins did when they reduced the amount of precious metals in their gold and silver thalers, and replaced them with inferior iron, to increase the amount of thalers and give the illusion of having more wealth that they then spend. It is betrayal, theft, and always it is snowballing.

So how economy with relatively fixed amount of gold can deal with growing wealth.?
...after all people create wealth as well.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by MH

So how economy with relatively fixed amount of gold can deal with growing wealth.?
...after all people create wealth as well.

It is totally unimportant how much quantity of a currency is in circulation. The Central banks' self-legitimation in parts is that "somebody must control the amount of money in circulation".

Nonsense.

If you increase the number of currency units in the system by - for the easiness of calculation in this example - by a factor of ten, then you see that prices adapt by moving the decimal one digit to the right. What costed you 1 thaler before, now will cost you ten thalers. If you reduce the number of currency units in circulation by let's say one half, you will sooner or later see that prices half as well.

If there are many gold coins in circulation, their price will drop on the market. When there are fewer gold coins in circulation, their value rises. But if you have some criminal mind called "politician" giving it a fixed value that the market is not to negotiate freely, then you are in a nightmare of deep troubles. Such a currency no longer represents and reflects true market events. And that is what politicians want with their control of the currency - to hide how they are abusing and ruining the system.

Wealth cannot be produced on the basis of fictional value (=credit). Already von Mises showed in all stunning logic, that wealth can only be founded (if you want it to last) on the basis of real value that you have saved before - and then investing this saved value. There are no shortcuts. You need to go the longer and more difficult way. You must save a little bit, and then invest that. Using credits for your investments only founds or increases the snowball system and its longterm devastating effects.

There is no way to generate value out of nothing. It's an illusion, and it destroys us like the happy dreams of constant heavy drug abuse destroys the consumer. But he grins until the bitter end.

[MH]

There is no way to generate value out of nothing. It's an illusion, and it destroys us like the happy dreams of constant heavy drug abuse destroys the consumer. But he grins until the bitter end.

Creating new technologies is creating value from nothing.
Software you using is the same...value from nothing - an idea.
It is not about exchanging relatively fixed amount of goods for relatively fixed amount of metal anymore.
We would have value rise of gold coins till it was impractical to use them again.

Wealth is not about how many gold bars you own anymore.
Not saying that current system is perfect but gold based one is crazy...

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by MH

Creating new technologies is creating value from nothing.
Software you using is the same...value from nothing - an idea.
It is not about exchanging relatively fixed amount of goods for relatively fixed amount of metal anymore.
We would have value rise of gold coins till it was impractical to use them again.

Wealth is not about how many gold bars you own anymore.
Not saying that current system is perfect but gold based one is crazy...

Ideas you newly deveklope and form into inventions, base on intellctual work invested before, and the fruits of intzellectual work done before. They do not come form nothing. And you need financial wealth to materilaise the idea you had, to make profit from it. Like the farmer needs seeds in spring to be able to harvest in autumn - and save some for the seeds he needs again next spring.

Fee market bartering is nopt about "fixed" prices as yoiu suggested above. It is about prices freeely negotiate by market participants.

Handling heaps of gold, and how impractical that is. If there were just one ton of gold in a country, the ammount of gold you would need to carry to buy a house, would be almost microscopic. Anyhow, nothing speaks against storing yopur gold bars in a safe place, say a bank, and be given a receipt for that - as long as the bank does and miust store all that gold in full material volume all the time. Originally, that is where banknotes are coming from! But then the other of the two archsins of modern fincial corruption was implemented: the fracional reserve system that allows banks to not store all gold given to them by the owner, but just a fraction of it, trading with the major part of it. I have explained that problem in a thread two or three weeks ago. Fractional reserve banking systems and FIAT paper money without true commodity-coverage are the death sentence for any responsible, reasonable fiscal system. Because on the very first occasion you allow a bank to not withhold all material value given to it for storage against a paper receipt, means that this bank already is bancrupt because if people come and want back all their store gold, the bank cannot meet the demand.

So you can use paper banknotes as long as there is not more currency units represented by them as there is in real commodity, saved and stored away in some secure location. The sin is if you use this system - and then intruduce a fractional reserve system. Then you know that you have let the ghosts out of pandora's box.

Money is like any commodity, good, item, that people are interested to trade with or to barter. Prices for these items must be allowed to be freely negotiated. A need for FIAT money of any form does not exist except for politicians who will always dislike that there are unsurpassable limits defined by a solid money to their unlimited spending fantasies. It is always the kings, the feudal elites, later the governments and politicians in republics and the fans of socialist planned economies that have corrupted and ruined currencies and thus destroyed economies. And they all bred corruption and plundering en masse.

Central Banks are not needed. State control of currency is not needed. Fractional reserve banking is not needed. Each of these three alone already is utmost destructive. Together, they are apocalyptic.

What states need to do is to be as little and small as possible, to tax and to spend almost nothing, and to be as non-existing as can be achieved. Democracy always must lead to socialism and planned economy and bureaucratic totalitarianism. The opposite to democracy - is freedom.

[Tchocky]

If everyone got into a car accident on the same day then insurance companies would collapse.

Originally Posted by Skybird

There is no way to generate value out of nothing. It's an illusion, and it destroys us like the happy dreams of constant heavy drug abuse destroys the consumer. But he grins until the bitter end.

Of course you can, say for example you get some muppet like Beck to hype the value of gold and get some mises fanatics to further spread the gospel of hype then you can generate a completely false value which doesn't really exist.