Huge pro-EU rally grips Ukraine

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by sailor_X

Believe me I will, Ukraine is not my nation afterall, but I will fight russians for the justice I believe in. If I die in the fight, let it be, but my life will be gone for something that is important to me. I'm a memeber of the baltic nation and I'm proud of it. So if the call of duty will receive my mail box I will be there no matter what to stand for Ukrainian people, because I know that we might be next in this game of chess.

What is the stance of your country regarding events in the Ukraine?

Your from Lithuania (Kaunas) yes?

Further to the topic....The newly appointed head of the Ukrainian Navy swears allegiance to Crimea in presence of its unrecognised prime minister.

[Schroeder]

Originally Posted by sailor_X

France or Germany alone could, not back in the past, but the power is in unity we could succeed without a fair, but Europe has to be united for this goal to reach.

You are aware that Europe's forces have been downsized dramatically over the last two decades? Germany is pretty much at it's Limit with just a few thousand troops in Afghanistan and Kosovo. We will get some 200something new Puma IFV to replace the 2000something Marders that we once had (yes, our mechanized infantry will have 10% of it's cold war strength then...the tank hunters with their Jaguars have been disbanded altogether), the Netherlands have disbanded their tank units and cut their air force by 30% and don't even start with the British military which has been butchered. Forget Europe, we thought the cold war is over and everyone will live happily ever after.

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

At Oberon, that came from me, Haha, I ninja edited my post.

On Skype with Steve and Betonov and I am sending you the physicians bill for the cracked ribs

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

What is the stance of your country regarding events in the Ukraine?

Your from Lithuania (Kaunas) yes?

Further to the topic....The newly appointed head of the Ukrainian Navy swears allegiance to Crimea in presence of its unrecognised prime minister.

Correct, but for now my mind is focused on the events in Ukraine. I just can't to tell my self that I don't care, I care a lot about upcoming events in Ukraine.

Originally Posted by Schroeder

You are aware that Europe's forces have been downsized dramatically over the last two decades? Germany is pretty much at it's Limit with just a few thousand troops in Afghanistan and Kosovo. We will get some 200something new Puma IFV to replace the 2000something Marders that we once had (yes, our mechanized infantry will have 10% of it's cold war strength then...the tank hunters with their Jaguars have been disbanded altogether), the Netherlands have disbanded their tank units and cut their air force by 30% and don't even start with the British military which has been butchered. Forget Europe, we thought the cold war is over and everyone will live happily ever after.

Actually the cold war was never over, it just got the eye candy "friendly shape" of it.

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by sailor_X

US in not obliged to fight Russia. I'm ashamed that Europe itself can do little to fight against Russias aggresion. There should be no US cassualties in this war for justice, perhaps if we trully unite we might succeed, but we must try, we just can't let to happen what's about to happen. If Ukraine falls it means every nation in Europe could fall.

Look, I'm all for nuclear war against Russia as much As the next guy, but i doubt it will happen, would disrupt the US food stamp program. What we can and should do, US and Europe should ban all business, travel, and commerce with Russia. Shut them Out, isolate them.

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

Originally Posted by Schroeder

You are aware that Europe's forces have been downsized dramatically over the last two decades? Germany is pretty much at it's Limit with just a few thousand troops in Afghanistan and Kosovo. We will get some 200something new Puma IFV to replace the 2000something Marders that we once had (yes, our mechanized infantry will have 10% of it's cold war strength then...the tank hunters with their Jaguars have been disbanded altogether), the Netherlands have disbanded their tank units and cut their air force by 30% and don't even start with the British military which has been butchered. Forget Europe, we thought the cold war is over and everyone will live happily ever after.

Here are personnel strengths of armies when fully mobilized. Pick your dream (or most realistic) teams.

"The Bad Boy"

Russian Federation 3,250,000

Other side of the pond

USA 2,291,910
Canada 127,954

Europeans in descending order

Ukraine 1,214,900
Turkey 1,087,930
Poland 663,000
Greece 461,600
France 413,469
Finland 388,700
United Kingdom 387,570
Italy 347,667
Germany 326,927
Portugal 301,930
Serbia 220,000
Spain 219,510
Switzerland 203,130
Estonia 87,258
Hungary 85,450
Denmark 80,092
Norway 69,275
Netherlands 67,641
Austria 65,700
Cyprus 60,800
Bulgaria 51,550
Sweden 50,200
Croatia 42,600
Belgium 40,492
Lithuania 30,150
Czech Republic 28,920
Ireland 25,335
Bosnia and Hertzegovina 23,000
Albania 19,795
Latvia 16,611
Slovakia 16,531
Slovenia 15,500
Montenegro 13,227
Republic of Macedonia 12,850
Kosovo 3,600
Malta 2,121
Luxembourg 1,512
Monaco 263
Iceland 130

...and naturally kindest way to describe equipment of these European armies is "diverse". Efficiency problems due equipment incompatibilities would be significant although most of countries listed above would propably say "Thank you but no thank you!" for idea of fighing Russia...

[Schroeder]

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

Look, I'm all for nuclear war against Russia as much As the next guy, but i doubt it will happen, would disrupt the US food stamp program. What we can and should do, US and Europe should ban all business, travel, and commerce with Russia. Shut them Out, isolate them.

Now guess where Germany is getting a good portion of it's gas from.
We need them more than they need us so don't count on Germany doing anything.
I don't like it, but I don't see any reasonable way for us to take actions that wouldn't heavily backfire on us.

[volodya61]

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

...What we can and should do, US and Europe should ban all business, travel, and commerce with Russia. Shut them Out, isolate them.

Thank you.. maybe it's better to do against officials, deputies and the government and not against all citizens.. they all have the property and accounts in your countries, I mean our officials and the government and Putin himself.. not alienate ordinary people.. if sanctions against all Russian citizens, the world will get a new round of Cold War and nothing else..

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

Look, I'm all for nuclear war against Russia as much As the next guy, but i doubt it will happen, would disrupt the US food stamp program. What we can and should do, US and Europe should ban all business, travel, and commerce with Russia. Shut them Out, isolate them.

I agree on this, however I doubt if it could impact Russia in ligthning war that Putin is raging on, If Ukraine falls under Putins regime it tells that Russia could long last without commerce from outside the world. Impact on Russia about isolation would bring little effect afterall during few months. But a few months is a long period and who knows what might happen during this period.

[Skybird]

30% of Europe's energy demand is fed by Russia. Second biggest energy provider is Algeria.

Just read the headline: the newly appointed head of the Ukrainian navy also defects, swearing allegiance to the autonomous republic's Russian-supported government instead.

Assuming he did so while not staring into the mouth of a Kalashnikov, this is the second high level defection of the day.

Ukraine has called for generalk mobilzation, which will bring 1 million to arms, but with outdated equipement ont he ground, and lack of coordination. They are not en par with the Russian military, I'd say. And more, you can bet that not all these units are Europe friendly and will accept Kiew'S command. There will be more units switching sides.

Now the tricky thing is: Kiew does not know which one it will be.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by kraznyi_oktjabr

Here are personnel strengths of armies when fully mobilized. Pick your dream (or most realistic) teams.

"The Bad Boy"

Russian Federation 3,250,000

Other side of the pond

USA 2,291,910
Canada 127,954

Europeans in descending order

Ukraine 1,214,900
Turkey 1,087,930
Poland 663,000
Greece 461,600
France 413,469
Finland 388,700
United Kingdom 387,570
Italy 347,667
Germany 326,927
Portugal 301,930
Serbia 220,000
Spain 219,510
Switzerland 203,130
Estonia 87,258
Hungary 85,450
Denmark 80,092
Norway 69,275
Netherlands 67,641
Austria 65,700
Cyprus 60,800
Bulgaria 51,550
Sweden 50,200
Croatia 42,600
Belgium 40,492
Lithuania 30,150
Czech Republic 28,920
Ireland 25,335
Bosnia and Hertzegovina 23,000
Albania 19,795
Latvia 16,611
Slovakia 16,531
Slovenia 15,500
Montenegro 13,227
Republic of Macedonia 12,850
Kosovo 3,600
Malta 2,121
Luxembourg 1,512
Monaco 263
Iceland 130

...and naturally kindest way to describe equipment of these European armies is "diverse". Efficiency problems due equipment incompatibilities would be significant although most of countries listed above would propably say "Thank you but no thank you!" for idea of fighing Russia...

Yadda yadda. And Ukraine has 1000 tanks. Impressive. But it is old T-64 tanks, and only one or two dozen T-84. They also have another 1000 tanks in the dust box. These are even older T-55, some old T-72, and a few T-80s.

And so on. I mean you cannot judge an army's strength by its personnel numbers only. The Ukrainian forces are weak, with their fighters being their best weapon - and these fighters to 50% are not combat ready.

[Oberon]

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/02/wo...e.html?hp&_r=2

[Jimbuna]

I think the only option to Obama would be to increase the level of Russia's political and economic isolation.

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Yadda yadda. And Ukraine has 1000 tanks. Impressive. But it is old T-64 tanks, and only one or two dozen T-84. They also have another 1000 tanks in the dust box. These are even older T-55, some old T-72, and a few T-80s.

And so on. I mean you cannot judge an army's strength by its personnel numbers only. The Ukrainian forces are weak, with their fighters being their best weapon - and these fighters to 50% are not combat ready.

Completely agree. Finland's manpower is quite good taking into account our population, but its still mostly infantry with Kalashnikov derivates. There is couple of hundred Leopard 2A4 tanks and few hunder other armoured vehicles, handful of F/A-18C/D Hornet fighters, insignificant amount of helicopters (all transport) and Navy has some minelayers and missile boats. If Russian troops from Leningrad and other oblasts start marching to west its going to be very short battle except propably some limited guerilla warfare and insurgent action.