Escort see me without pinging

[Paulebaer1979]

Originally Posted by sailor_X

Nop, there were dozens of times during my careers when my boat happens to be well submerged doing slow speed in 30 meters depth even in silent running while patrolling DD accidently takes course towards me if distance is close enough he spots me no matter what. This is somewhat annoying and is lacking a logical explanation and I usually used to blame imperfect DD sensors of SH3 though.

I`m unable to explain this. When you are deeper than peridepth and run in silent mode the escorts should not be able to find you. I believe that in the sensor-management of the escorts is a small bug. Perhaps someone could check the passiv sonar performance?

[RussaX37]

Originally Posted by Paulebaer1979

I`m unable to explain this. When you are deeper than peridepth and run in silent mode the escorts should not be able to find you. I believe that in the sensor-management of the escorts is a small bug. Perhaps someone could check the passiv sonar performance?

[maillemaker]

I'm not sure where this idea of complete invisibility comes from.

You can do everything right and still get detected! The closer you are, the greater your chances of being detected. The closer to being broadside to the escort, the greater your chances of being detected. If you raise your periscope, the greater your chances of being detected. The later in the war, the greater your chances of being detected. The calmer the seas, the greater your chances of being detected.

All this is true even if you are at silent running and low RPMs.

If you run across the bow of an escort, even at silent speed, odds are good you will be detected.

Just chalk it up to someone dropping a wrench or farting too loud in the head.

Steve

[Kielhauler1961]

Periscope glass reflection from the sun? It wouldn't surprise me in this game and I take care never to leave my 'scope up for more than a few seconds at a time. Follow the link on the RN 'Perisher' course and you will see what I mean about proper periscope discipline. There was a BBC documentary about it many years ago. I remember it well and its lessons have been a great help to me in my SH3 'careers'.

In GWX there are some elite DD's with crack crews that have every sensor available running at maximum efficiency, unlike us.

They can DF radio chatter, pick you up beyond normal visual or sonar detection range and probably even 'smell' you underwater.

The No. 1 sub-killer, Johnnie Walker, had a team of ASDIC (and later Radar) specialists who had an uncanny nose for finding a contact and these guys just get better and more numerous as the war drags on.

Perisher link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Submarine_Command_Course

Walker link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederic_John_Walker

BBC 'Perisher' Documentary Part 1 (you won't be disappointed):

Take care, it's dangerous out there.

KH

edit: If we can 'cheat' by tweaking our boats and/or crews beyond historical limits, we cannot complain if our enemies do exactly the same...

[maillemaker]

The four-month course is run in four stages, the first and third involve learning ashore in simulators, while the second involves learning at sea. The fourth phase is the assessment, during which the candidates (of which the maximum is six) show their ability to command a submarine unaided during war-like conditions. The success rate for the SMCC is only 70% and, on failing, candidates are prevented from serving on submarines in any capacity.

What the heck is the purpose of that????

Steve

[Kielhauler1961]

@ Steve,

It's the same principle why many airlines will not allow a co-pilot who has failed to make the grade for Captain to serve aboard a commercial aircraft after the event. American Airlines, I believe, brought this in and it has been adopted by other carriers, but not all.

Failure brings career ruin, an end of dreams. Some can accept that but many cannot.

There have been instances of failures being allowed to continue serving in a junior capacity in the past which have brought disaster. Some were deliberate as a way of getting 'even' with the system that rejected them, others because they were not competant anyway and should have been dismissed but slipped through the system.

It cannot be allowed for a failed professional to endanger any vehicle by design or by accident - they have been tested and found wanting and the system demands that they be rejected for the safety of others. That is the cardinal rule in safety-critical professional situations.

One strike and you're out. Where lives are at stake, there is no second chance.

KH

[maillemaker]

I just watched it, I felt very bad for the guys who did not make it.

It seems to me a terrible waste of resources. To take people with a decade's worth of naval experience, experience sufficient to even put one in the running for command, and then to throw it away because they were unable to pass the test.

I guess I can see this thought that someone rejected by "the system" might harbor resentments about that and try and sabotage the system in retribution, but I would think that someone able to make it into command school would be above that sort of thing.

I suppose they have more candidates than subs so they can afford to be choosy.

Steve

Originally Posted by maillemaker

I'm not sure where this idea of complete invisibility comes from.

You can do everything right and still get detected! The closer you are, the greater your chances of being detected. The closer to being broadside to the escort, the greater your chances of being detected. If you raise your periscope, the greater your chances of being detected. The later in the war, the greater your chances of being detected. The calmer the seas, the greater your chances of being detected.

All this is true even if you are at silent running and low RPMs.

If you run across the bow of an escort, even at silent speed, odds are good you will be detected.

Just chalk it up to someone dropping a wrench or farting too loud in the head.

Steve

Indeed, complete stealth of a U-boat in SH3 is somewhat impossible. Just by monitoring noise indicator could tell a lot about it. Just make a test mission and you'll notice this too. Make a lonely destroyer come right at you and while submerged-silent running-dead stop, see what happens. Noise indicator turns red and you will be pinged. What triggers it ? You can only guess or use your imagination to figure out why or what gives away your presence to a destroyer completly out of the blue.

Let's not forget we're talking here about very first detection of a u-boat and it does not matter what angle your u-boat is facing the incoming DD keeping in mind that destroyer is unaware about a u-boat nearby. In SH3 all that matters is the distance and how close DD is passing by. But the distance itself shouldn't be the key of primary detection if you're being extremly carefull about noise.

And then of course when you don't get any answers to why does it happen you're starting to make up things like somebody dropped a wrench or farted at the wrong moment, however these odds are not modded in SH3 (I wouldn't mind if it was)

This event to HOW a DD might find you without using a passive sonar first - would be a magnetic anomaly detection devic. However the usage of this kind of technology was very closely linked to aircrafts and not to warships and of course it's not covered in SH3 nor in other supermods that I know.

Conclusion: Too sensitive detection sensors ? I'm not 100% sure, but I think it might be it..

[maillemaker]

It's farts.

Steve

[Tango589]

Originally Posted by maillemaker

It's farts.

Steve

Yeah, Bernards' been cooking his famous cabbage and sprout surprise again...

[Paulebaer1979]

Originally Posted by sailor_X

Indeed, complete stealth of a U-boat in SH3 is somewhat impossible. Just by monitoring noise indicator could tell a lot about it. Just make a test mission and you'll notice this too. Make a lonely destroyer come right at you and while submerged-silent running-dead stop, see what happens. Noise indicator turns red and you will be pinged. What triggers it ? You can only guess or use your imagination to figure out why or what gives away your presence to a destroyer completly out of the blue.

That was my job yesterday afternoon. I tested it with Clemson, Hunt I-III and C-Class. First test was with destroyers at low speed (5kn). When i was in a IXD2 (and XXI) at 20m silent running all stop. Below 400m the indicator went to orange, then to red and the destroyers started to ping.
With higher speed of the destroyers they could come closer - but they found every time. The only chance to be not found is going deeper. Below 120m they didn´t recognice me - even when i was mooving with ahead slow.
So in SH3 they have a MAD-system wich isn´t known by the BDU. Damm!

[maillemaker]

I have always assumed that the logic was that no submarine is completely silent, and so if they get close enough a diligent passive operator will hear the sub.

While you are in the sub submerged at any depth you are always hearing creakings and groanings from the boat.

Steve

[Paulebaer1979]

Originally Posted by maillemaker

While you are in the sub submerged at any depth you are always hearing creakings and groanings from the boat.

Today that´s wrong. In a well trimmed sub with "all stop" you only can hear the crew. The hull doesn´t make noise because the pressure doesn´t change - if the sub don´t change its depth.
I guess it was so in the past, too. So we have a silly bug in our nice game.