Periscope detections are hosed

[neilbyrne]

Mods listed in order shown above.

Sniper, where is it that I can set escort performance values? Can you get to something that borders reality? I don't find giving the AI freebee detections at 6kyds to be fun.

[Armistead]

Originally Posted by neilbyrne

Mods listed in order shown above.

Sniper, where is it that I can set escort performance values? Can you get to something that borders reality? I don't find giving the AI freebee detections at 6kyds to be fun.

This explains enemy values and how to change them. However, I wouldn't do much, the fact is the AI basically makes up for other flaws of the game. Most long time players can use the hardest mods and still rack up unrealistic tonnage per patrol.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...=111395&page=2

[neilbyrne]

Armistead, thanks for the lead.

I don't care about tonnage or that folks learn to work around these fantasies. What I'm trying to get to is something that's more real. I sometimes play this with my best friend who is a retired USN CDR; one of us on the keyboard and the other running manuevering board solutions on escorts & targets. It's fun but we're growing very weary of having something crazy happen where we look at each other and say, "Now that's bull****; I mean not a chance that happens."

But from what I can read so far, the AI is based on concrete that was poured on oozing ground. It won't go active unless it detects passively for some period which was impossible at the time. So if I turn off passive sonar, the escorts will go blind in both eyes.

I'm going to have to play with this some I guess.

I played thru the war three times on TMO 1.5/RSRDC several years ago and don't remember it being this bad for realism. Occasionally something goofy would happen, but nothing like this.

[Sniper297]

Don't get me started, the whole thing is goofy. When I examine files I find many many that are not used at all in the game - they're leftovers from Silent Hunter III. Another example of oversimplified programming is layers - as former subhunters, you and I understand the nature of thermal layers and all the reflection/refraction/reverberation stuff. In game the thermal layer works like another surface layer, line of "sight" from sonar. If you're on or above the surface or any part of the sub or periscope sticks up, the enemy can see you. If you're completely under the surface you're "invisible".

Layers work the same way, the bathythermograph sensor is on the keel, so when the stage whisper comes "PASSING THERMAL LAYER!", only the KEEL has passed the thermal layer, so if you stop there sonar can still "see" you. Note the depth when the whisper comes, go down 60 feet deeper than that, now the whole sub is "submerged" under the layer and can't be detected at all. Come up 20 feet so the periscope shears are above the layer, and you will always be detected at the same range that you would be visually if the shears were sticking above the actual surface.

In other words the thermal layer in the game is a kind of "virtual surface" for sound, simply a flat plane you're either above or hidden below. I know real layers are nothing like that unless there's a seriously sharp difference in temp and/or salinity, but I take advantage of them anyway - the enemy cheats so why shouldn't I?
In fact when there's time I make a deep submergence before the target arrives so I can note the depth if there's a thermal layer, add 60 feet and make a mental note of where I'll go after the attack - usually I avoid being depth charged at all that way. Fire all tubes, observe hits if there's time, then kick out a decoy, go to flank speed, head for 60 feet below the layer, then slow down to avoid wasting battery juice. I don't even order silent running, let the crew clang and bang while reloading tubes, if I'm under the layer they won't hear it.

[Armistead]

Originally Posted by neilbyrne

Armistead, thanks for the lead.

I don't care about tonnage or that folks learn to work around these fantasies. What I'm trying to get to is something that's more real. I sometimes play this with my best friend who is a retired USN CDR; one of us on the keyboard and the other running manuevering board solutions on escorts & targets. It's fun but we're growing very weary of having something crazy happen where we look at each other and say, "Now that's bull****; I mean not a chance that happens."

But from what I can read so far, the AI is based on concrete that was poured on oozing ground. It won't go active unless it detects passively for some period which was impossible at the time. So if I turn off passive sonar, the escorts will go blind in both eyes.

I'm going to have to play with this some I guess.

I played thru the war three times on TMO 1.5/RSRDC several years ago and don't remember it being this bad for realism. Occasionally something goofy would happen, but nothing like this.

It's a balance of numerous values, I seldom had a problem getting found out with TMO until I got my attack off and could always evade unless I did something stupid. I did fine tune all my values, some harder, some easier, but I don't recall having a problem with the scope being seen unless I leave it up too long or going to fast. However, I do just raise it above the waterline. I haven't played in a long time, but maybe the visual sensor in the sim file has a min/max height value that could be adjusted, I just don't remember.

The AI sonar will only come on if you fall within its sonar cone, give it the right angle and depth. As long as I stay narrow to an escort, I seldom get pinged unless I get within 1000 yards. Someone did make a exe file mod/cheat of sort that you have to run after you start the game that turns active sonar off until you're found out another way.

With most sensors, to get found out you have to do several things for a period of time before they activate or sense you. What you don't know is the crew rating of each escort, which determines the amount of sensor used.

[Raven Morpheus]

I share in neilbyrne's frustration with the AI. I run only the GFO mod (my other mods are graphical and sound related, so I believe they are unlikely to affect the AI).

I too find the AI to be clairvoyant.

My latest example of this is trying to do a "quick mission" provided by the GFO mod for the German side (the mission is called Ocean Danger).

You start off at least 6k away from a 4 merchant ship convoy with a 2 DD 3 armed trawler escort, at periscope depth and it's just getting to night time. I immediately upon starting the mission give the order to dive to what I think is under the thermal layer (90m or lower (I usually set 100m)), and sure enough on the way down I get the "passing thermal layer" message. All the time I'm either moving at half speed or less and trying to get into position.

When I am in position 9/10 times when I come up to periscope depth as soon as I take a look I can see that the AI has spotted me (in the dark!) and the 4 merchant ships in the target convoy have started to circle and seem to have been doing so for at least a few minutes because the convoy is all broken up?!

I've also had with the same mission the same thing neilbyrne gets - where a DD seems to automagically know where you are and starts depth charging you?!

Conversely so far in my US campaign I've not had such a problem, or at least not as much of a problem - perhaps that is because I've only done 2 missions and all the AI ships are set to the lowest value (Novice and below?) at the start of the campaign?


I really wish one of the talented modders out there would come up with a fix for this sort of clairvoyant behaviour, or if that's not possible perhaps a short guide to "best standard practice" could be written by one of the "experts" at not getting detected?

[Armistead]

Raven, I assume GFO still uses the stock campaign, at that distance its possible you were spotted before you dived and you're only noticing the behavior later thinking it's your scope.

One thing to remember about the AI, escort will come searching for you at your last known position or they will come directly to where torps are spawned.

The AI doesn't cheat, it follows parameters set by values. Simply, it passive sonar has a value for that time, it doesn't alter that to another setting.

The game can be frustrating until you learn all aspects of it, more so if you run harder mods like TMO. I use a version of TMO that I tweaked, because play long enough, even TMO becomes too easy.

One thing you need to do if you're learning is use the exterior cam a lot. Put it on nearby escorts and watch their behavior as you change speed, raise scopes, etc...Find out what you're doing and try something else.

More importantly, learn when to attack and when to wait. If water is shallow and calm during the day, bad time to attack. Try to attack when the values are in your favor, not in theirs. Sometimes it's best to shadow until you find a better advantage.

Even when you get good, often the goal is simply to get off your attack before spotted, knowing you're going to come under attack and it becomes a matter of proper evasion.

It takes time, when I played, I used a very hard AI, edited numerous escort to elite status and still found methods to beat the AI...With any game, once you understand the AI, you can find ways to beat it...if you don't make mistakes.

They're probably 100's of threads on this subject, so try the search function. Take time to read peoples patrol reports, such as paulhager, he gets detailed, but you can pick up good tips.

[Raven Morpheus]

Originally Posted by Armistead

Raven, I assume GFO still uses the stock campaign, at that distance its possible you were spotted before you dived and you're only noticing the behavior later thinking it's your scope.

OK, so how can they spot you at >6k, at dusk, when you're starting (in the case of the "quick mission") at periscope depth with the periscope down? I didn't think their sonar was supposed to be that good?

After the start of that quick mission I'm diving to what I believe is below the thermal layer, and I don't come up again until I'm in position and the convoy is within 3k and even then I only come up to periscope depth and by that time it's night time with only the moon providing light. So they must "spot" me as I'm coming up from below the thermal layer - so again clairvoyant or incredibly unrealistic and good sonar skills.

[merc4ulfate]

You all do realize that by the time period mentioned in the OP post the Japanese had the type 13, 21, 22 and the Tase-2 Type 4 radar units?? I am fairly certain the mod modeled it as well. Maybe not specific types but at least detection ranges.

The Type 22 could spot a ship 13nm away and was installed on many destroyers by 44.

The Tase-2 Type 4 was built as an anti submarine radar unit had these specs:


Wavelength:15.7 cm

Pulse width:3 microseconds

Pulse repetition frequency:1875 Hz

Peak power:1 kW

Range:
1.2 miles (2 km) against submarine periscope
6 miles (10 km) against surfaced submarine
20 miles (30 km) against surface warship

Antenna:Horizontal dipole with 2.5 meter parabola

Weight:4400 lb,2000 kg



By the way if your looking for a perfect simulator you should try the one at Groton. This is a game it is not a simulator. To complain it is not realistic is to lose sight of this fact. Yes many good persons have contributed many hours to creating "more realistic" attitudes from the game platform but in the end it is neither realistic nor a simulator.

I remember many of the same sentiments spoken of 688 when it was released and how many thought it was a simulator. It was simply a game based off what Sonalysts thought might be a good platform as a game/simulator scenario.

I enjoy the more realistic aspects to any type of quasi-simulator. I want it harder to win, I want to be challenged to get better at tactics. I enjoy the escorts as hard as they can be. It only makes me find new ways of winning which is what we all want in the end. Even with the mods I run it is rare an escorts picks me up submerged unless the range is below 2000 yards. I have had some get as close as 800 yards without being detected. I sank one of Karita's Heavy Cruisers as they moved through the narrow Surigao Straight during the Battle of Leyte Gulf. The lead escort never even heard me.

We want to beat the game without dying a single time. A whole career with our fabulous crew racking up a good bit of tonnage and show O'Kane and Morton a thing or two about running a fighting boat.

You just can't let yourself get so caught up in winning that you lose sight of the fact that we are playing a game ... If you do not like the mods francis do not use them.

By the way I am all for making mods more realistic ... I look forward to seeing what you come up with neil. I am really hoping someone finds a way of modeling all the random failures and fogged scopes that skippers had to deal with as Captains of submarines. All you have to do is read through the actual reports from the Captains themselves and see how our little game is nothing close to what they had to deal with.

You can find them here:

http://www.hnsa.org/doc/subreports.htm

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Generic Mod Enabler - v2.6.0.157
1_TriggerMaru_Overhaul_2-5
1_TMO_25_small_patch
RSRDC_TMO_V502
RSRDC_V5xx_Patch1
Traveller Mod v2.6 TMO
#1 Real Environment mod install
Traveller Mod 2.6 Patch 1 - ISE v3 Patch
#4 Warships retextured
Traveller Mod 2.6 No Midway Transfer
Traveller Mod 2.6 No DC Camera Shake
Traveller Mod 2.6 Larger Search Patterns
Traveller Mod 2.6 Harder Enemy AI Escorts
Traveller Mod 2.6 Automatic Ship ID
Traveller Alternate Main Loading Screens
Convoy Routes TMO+RSRD
tambor198's TMO+RSRDC missions pack

P.S. :

I forgot to mention that it would a great mod to have if someone created one where when you sink a ship it removes it from ever showing up in the game again during a career. I had one career where I sank the Yamato 5 times ... since there was only one of her and her sister ship the Musashi it really makes it not realistic to have 5 ... then again the way I run my boat there might not be much for Halsey to sink with me around LOL

[aanker]

Originally Posted by merc4ulfate

...... it would a great mod to have if someone created one where when you sink a ship it removes it from ever showing up in the game again during a career. I had one career where I sank the Yamato 5 times ... since there was only one of her and her sister ship the Musashi ....

Just as in the SH1 - SHCE games, I didn't feel that I needed to attack everything, the same can be done with SH4.

I didn't attack every convoy or task force in SHCE, a person can attack one out of five, one out of twenty, whatever they choose - to eliminate the complaint of too much traffic.

Regarding capital ships, if a player uses a Warship Restriction List, once the two Yamato class SBB's are sunk, I pretend I don't see any more, even if I see them. Same with CV's of various classes, once they are sunk, I pretend I don't see them.

I wish SH4 had made a 'restriction list' in the game engine but they didn't, so I use the WRL.... lol

Happy Hunting!