Failing to detonate torpedo

[GoldenRivet]

You could disable all the mods, try the scenario again.

if you get good hits... enable one of the mods... go into the game, try the scenario and do this over and over again until the torpedo stops going boom... whatever the last mod you enabled is - its the problem.

[aluc24]

Alright, I'll try that. I just hope that the scenario will load with these mods disabled...

If you wish, I could upload the career file with this save. Maybe you could see something I can't...

[GoldenRivet]

sounds good... we could even try that if all else fails

[BigWalleye]

AFAIK, nothing in your mod list is an obvious contributor to the problem you are experiencing. However, I have 3 observations:

1) GWX - Merged Campaign is only useful if you are planning to transition from a North Sea or Atlantic port to the Mediterranean or Pacific during the current patrol. Otherwise, it serves no purpose, offers no advantage, and greatly increases the time to reload a saved game. As the GWX documentation recommends, activate it only when needed.

2) Your OP describes using a Typ II. So there is no purpose to activating GWX - VIIC41 Player Sub. This mod is only for use when you intend to use a VIIC41 on the current patrol and serves no other purpose. Again, please check the recommendations in the GWX documentation.

3) If you have followed the h.sie's installation instructions for V16B1-Patch-Kit, then Supplement to V 16B1 contains a modified version of de_menu.txt, en_menu.txt, or both. Since Widescreen MaGui v3.4 SA, modifies both of these files, Supplement to V 16B1 should be greyed out in the JSGME dialog box image that you posted. The fact that it is not suggests that your Supplement to V 16B1 may not be set up correctly. In that case, all kinds of unexpected behaviors could result, probably including the one you describe.

BTW, are you using SH3 Commander? If so, have you ever inadvertently changed your mod list and neglected to roll back SH3 Commander first? This also can cause all sorts of unpredictable behaviors.

[aluc24]

Okay, here is career file:

http://s000.tinyupload.com/index.php...18798856371109

BigWalleye, thanks. I disabled both these unnecessary mods. I also fixed Supplement to V 16B1 installation. I forgot to append these new messages to the files you mentioned.

It now shows like this:



I always roll back SH3 Commander... It is set on automatic rollback.

So, with this configuration, my save doesn't load anymore. Crashes the game after displaying "U-boat..." message.

[GoldenRivet]

Loaded the most recent save file in the career.

spotted the merchant on about a 043 bearing, Sonar operator providing constant updates on bearing.

locked periscope to merchant

updated TDC with the following settings

Target Speed: 5 knots
Angle on Bow: Port (red) 60 degrees
Estimated Range visually: 1100 meters

Tube one was set for high speed with magnetic trigger at 4 meters depth

Fired tube 1:

Updated TDC to a target speed of 6 knots

Tube two was set for high speed with impact trigger at 4 meters depth

Tube one found its mark and exploded just aft of the center superstructure

Tube two found its mark and exploded just forward of the center superstructure

the merchant listed to port and sank by the stern at 2006 hours

Set your tdc to those perameters and try again - this time using the TDC method with the settings i gave you above, make sure you switch the TDC back to manual before firing. Once those settings are in.. fire the fish

if you score hits, we can assume the observed range you provided (700 meters) was in error and your torpedoes missed the target astern.

[GoldenRivet]

See above post:

Repeated the test, this time i used the same TDC settings with an updated range of 1300 meters.

fired a spread of three, 0° spread angle, high speed setting with all impact triggers.

observed two impacts under the main superstructure, third torpedoe failed to detonate, assume the strike angle was too great as the ship was heaving in a heavy swell at the time i expected the impact.

this time the ship listed hard to port, slowed to a stop and sank within 15 minutes

[aluc24]

I can't try it right now, my save doesn't load anymore.

Please tell, what was the gyro angle during your shots? At what bearing did you fire? In other words, how many degrees lead did you use?

As I mentioned, by using the method I described before, range doesn't matter at all, all that matters is target speed and AOB... Or at least that's what tutorials say.

[GoldenRivet]

Originally Posted by aluc24

I can't try it right now, my save doesn't load anymore.

Please tell, what was the gyro angle during your shots? At what bearing did you fire? In other words, how many degrees lead did you use?

As I mentioned, by using the method I described before, range doesn't matter at all, all that matters is target speed and AOB... Or at least that's what tutorials say.

Dont recall the exact gyroangle but it was about 25°, both shots were off at about a 040 bearing (call it 038-040)

even on TDC the range doesnt matter... range only gives you a time to impact and lets you know how many seconds should elapse before the hit is scored. this way you can know that if it has been 35 seconds and you have not observed an impact, and the estimated time to impact was 15 seconds... you have probably missed.

I just ran it again with all TDC settings zeroed out, and fired a snapshot in a zero bearing with 7-8 degrees lead. All three torpedoes missed astern... something is off about the lead calculation.

I listened on the hydrophone to all three torpedoes running hot straight and normal, the ship sailed right past their sound signature unharmed.

[GoldenRivet]

Tried it again... same result.

I would encourage you to learn to use the TDC... it is increadibly easy with a turorial video or two, and with a little practice it will add a great deal of realism and capability to your experiences within SH3.

I have tried the snapshot bearing method you used in your attack with mixed results.

unfortunately you have to always be at a 90 degree angle to the target and as close to 0 knots speed as possible which is time consuming to maneuver into firing position, and it is not always tactically possible to get into that position easily or quickly, especially when escorts are involved in the situation.

With use of the TDC, if done properly with even modest settings, you will find that you can fire on a target from almost any position, any speed, and almost any AOB and score a hit. With experience you can setup a TDC shot in mere seconds.

I sighted the ship in your save game at 043 degrees, by the time he moved 3 degrees of bearing change i had a solution on him and scored hits within 38 seconds of having eyes on the target.

highly recommended method

[aluc24]

even on TDC the range doesnt matter... range only gives you a time to impact and lets you know how many seconds should elapse before the hit is scored. this way you can know that if it has been 35 seconds and you have not observed an impact, and the estimated time to impact was 15 seconds... you have probably missed.

If so, why turning range dial in TDC changes gyro angle? It affects torpedo trajectory...

I just ran it again with all TDC settings zeroed out, and fired a snapshot in a zero bearing with 7-8 degrees lead. All three torpedoes missed astern... something is off about the lead calculation.

This is very strange. I recognize that this 90 degree method isn't very comfortable, but I believe it is most effective for impact torpedoes, which, as I red, should be preferred in early war.
As for calculation, I used the table shown above, and also this tool provided by Matmos GUI:



I don't know if you are familiar with it. Outer ring represents target speed x10, middle ring - torpedo speed. You turn middle ring until these points match, and x provides lead angle.
In this case: middle ring set at 44 (fast torpedo speed), outer ring - 50 (5kts x 10), and x reads 6,5 degrees.

What exactly is wrong with this method, then? I used it dozens of times with great results...

I will try my luck with TDC then, but could you comment on this method I described? Why it didn't work? Target speed is definitely 5kts, AOB is 90 degrees, more or less... Why do torpedoes miss astern?

[Mittelwaechter]

Depth setting of your torpedos may be the problem.
V16B1 requires a wind speed/wave height dependant setting to counter the possibilitiy of surface runners and wave disturbances.
If your setting is too shallow, the mod runs the torpedos at 25 meters depth to simulate the failure.
You say there are moderate storm conditions? 10 meters wind speed results in a minimum depth setting of 4.4 meters (iirc - it's been a while I played the game).
15 meters wind asks for ~ 6.5 meters minimum - often a no go for a successful attack.

Allow external view and follow (F12) your eels to observe what happens for training purposes.

[GoldenRivet]

Originally Posted by aluc24

If so, why turning range dial in TDC changes gyro angle? It affects torpedo trajectory...

Let me rephrase... it has been my experience that range has very little effect on the solution. generally speaking i have found that the TDC range only has to be your best guess +/- several hundred meters at best. This margin of error increases with range, but i have found, as long as you are within +/- 2000 meters range has little effect on the solution

Originally Posted by aluc24

This is very strange. I recognize that this 90 degree method isn't very comfortable, but I believe it is most effective for impact torpedoes, which, as I red, should be preferred in early war.
As for calculation, I used the table shown above, and also this tool provided by Matmos GUI:

I don't know if you are familiar with it. Outer ring represents target speed x10, middle ring - torpedo speed. You turn middle ring until these points match, and x provides lead angle.
In this case: middle ring set at 44 (fast torpedo speed), outer ring - 50 (5kts x 10), and x reads 6,5 degrees.

What exactly is wrong with this method, then? I used it dozens of times with great results...

I am familiar with it, and so far as SH3 goes, there is nothing wrong with it, That is the beauty of SH3... you are quite free to play the game as you wish... i honestly dont think anything of it... however from a point of view of strategy and tactics, it will become an increasingly difficult method to use against a convoy when compared to the use of the TDC to calculate a proper solution against a target from virtually any attack position. the 90° method of attack will simply become harder to execute as the war progresses. unless the player intends only on attacking merchants sailing alone after say... late 1942, early 1943.

Originally Posted by aluc24

I will try my luck with TDC then, but could you comment on this method I described? Why it didn't work? Target speed is definitely 5kts, AOB is 90 degrees, more or less... Why do torpedoes miss astern?

I cannot say with great certainty why it failed to work. all i know is that when i tried the 90° method, the torpedoes missed astern, that very well could have been in my failing to attack properly. or in my not being as familiar with the method as you are.

I will point out though that when you are 90 degrees to the target's course, and the target is moving right to left as in this scenario, and when they are on a 7-8 degree bearing the AOB is most definitely NOT 90° its probably like somewhere around 79°

AOB is most easily described as how many degrees port or starboard from a 0° bearing the target would see you, not the other way round.... ie. they would see you 30° off the port bow or 60° or 80° etc

when set into the TDC it only has to be relatively close, not necessarily exact. this becomes more true as the target range is reduced or if the target is a particularly large ship because there is a greater margin in error in firing at a massive target like an aircraft carrier.

It could have been the case that the torpedoes malfunction as described in Mittelwaechter's reply above

he says.....

Depth setting of your torpedos may be the problem.

V16B1 requires a wind speed/wave height dependant setting to counter the possibilitiy of surface runners and wave disturbances.
If your setting is too shallow, the mod runs the torpedos at 25 meters depth to simulate the failure.
You say there are moderate storm conditions? 10 meters wind speed results in a minimum depth setting of 4.4 meters (iirc - it's been a while I played the game).
15 meters wind asks for ~ 6.5 meters minimum - often a no go for a successful attack.

As i do not use the V16B1 - any comment i made about it would be completely off the cuff made up, but he seems to be aware that in order to simulate the real life failure of torpedoes in rough seas the depth is reset to 25 meters if you set the depth too shallow. it is possible that he has discovered why your attack failed. - you simply set the running depth of the torpedoes too shallow for SH3's taste, and after firing they went to a 25 meter depth to simulate failure due to high waves... the torpedoes would have passed harmlessly about 20 meters beneath the ship and continued steaming onward until they quit, hitting nothing but open sea water.

[BigWalleye]

Originally Posted by aluc24

So, with this configuration, my save doesn't load anymore. Crashes the game after displaying "U-boat..." message.

Of course your save doesn't work any more. Making any change to your activated mods list will render all mid-patrol saved games unusable. (There are some very narrow exceptions, but it's easier and safer to consider this an iron-clad rule.) Only saves made while in port can be used after a change in activated mods, and even then, some mods will require a career restart anyway.

I am sorry that you changed your activated mods list without realizing the consequences. I just assumed that you would know that you have to restart the patrol. Please accept my apology for the inconvenience I caused you.

BTW, I suspect that Mittelwaechter's comment in Post #27 is the most likely explanation of your problem. Notice that GoldenRivet does not use H.sie's patcher, so he would not experience torpedo failures in bad weather. This woyuld explain why his replays of your attacks were successful, while yours, with the patch, were not. In your case, the torpedo wake would pass right through the target, but there would be no impact and no detonation, because the torpedo would be running at 25m. This seems to fit all the facts. Try turning the Torpedo Failure Fix patch off. Of course, you will have to deactivate Supplement to V16B1 before you turn off the patch, then reactivate it. This will require creating another engagement for test purposes.

[aluc24]

Mittelwaechter, what you suggest seems very probable. The storm was definitely more than 10m/s at the time. And with not too deep target draft, it is no wonder why there wasn't a "sweet spot" depth that would allow torpedoes to run without failing, and still being shallow enough not to bounce off the target.

Let me rephrase... it has been my experience that range has very little effect on the solution. generally speaking i have found that the TDC range only has to be your best guess +/- several hundred meters at best. This margin of error increases with range, but i have found, as long as you are within +/- 2000 meters range has little effect on the solution

Out of pure interest, why is that, exactly, this little effect? Because theoretically, range shouldn't matter at all, at least to my knowledge of trigonometry. Does it have something to do with torpedo acceleration to it's cruise speed after launch? Or maybe it's due to torpedo slowing down due to lesser charge in it's batteries? (not sure it's simulated)

I am familiar with it, and so far as SH3 goes, there is nothing wrong with it, That is the beauty of SH3... you are quite free to play the game as you wish... i honestly dont think anything of it... however from a point of view of strategy and tactics, it will become an increasingly difficult method to use against a convoy when compared to the use of the TDC to calculate a proper solution against a target from virtually any attack position. the 90° method of attack will simply become harder to execute as the war progresses. unless the player intends only on attacking merchants sailing alone after say... late 1942, early 1943.

I believe you. It's only that in early war, with Type IIB, I can't really find any convoys in my patrol area. Anyway, IIB is so slow and has such poor submerged range, so little torpedoes, that it doesn't make sense to go around Britain islands, possibly exhausting fuel supply... I just try to make some reasonable renown by sinking tramp steamers and medium cargo ships to get a new u-boat.
By the way, in late August, 1939, days before start of the war, I found a HUGE convoy of heavy steel - destroyers, battleships and so on - sailing towards Germany from England. No cargo ships. Just war machines. That was some monstrous firepower, cruising at around 15 knots. Maybe I could have sunk one (there were good conditions), but England was still neutral...
Just saying. It's amazing that the game has historical ship routes. Or it seems so - it's logical that England would send a fleet of destroyers towards Germany in the eve of the war.

I will point out though that when you are 90 degrees to the target's course, and the target is moving right to left as in this scenario, and when they are on a 7-8 degree bearing the AOB is most definitely NOT 90° its probably like somewhere around 79°

That's correct, I'm aware of that. By the definition of the method, 90° angle should be at the torpedo impact point, NOT on the point of launch.

BTW, I suspect that Mittelwaechter's comment in Post #27 is the most likely explanation of your problem. Notice that GoldenRivet does not use H.sie's patcher, so he would not experience torpedo failures in bad weather. This woyuld explain why his replays of your attacks were successful, while yours, with the patch, were not. In your case, the torpedo wake would pass right through the target, but there would be no impact and no detonation, because the torpedo would be running at 25m. This seems to fit all the facts. Try turning the Torpedo Failure Fix patch off. Of course, you will have to deactivate Supplement to V16B1 before you turn off the patch, then reactivate it. This will require creating another engagement for test purposes.

This seems very logical. After all, I used this attack method dozens of times with great success. And even if there was a tiny error in these measurements, at this distance and size of the target, it shouldn't matter. I guess the storm is to blame. Next time, I'll have to stick with magnetics, since they can run deeper, or just follow the target until weather clears up.

I am sorry that you changed your activated mods list without realizing the consequences. I just assumed that you would know that you have to restart the patrol. Please accept my apology for the inconvenience I caused you.

There is nothing to apologize for This was the second patrol of the career, only one tramp steamer sunk. No big deal. It was way more important to find out why the attack fails in general, rather than to succeed this particular attack. Ruling out mod interference was important. I restarted the patrol from the save in harbor. No harm done.

So, I guess the mystery is solved. No way to check it, but it's the only theory that fits the facts. Thank you all very much for your help.

P.S. GoldenRivet, you said you acquired all necessary info for attack in time it took for target to move 3 degrees. I wonder how. You said that range is estimated visually. Stadimeter, or just eye-ball guess?
Speed - did you use hydrophone to calculate propeller revolutions, or again, educated guess?
AOB is most interesting. How did you go about that? I always have a problem estimating AOB without drawing a lot of stuff on the map, which takes time - so I assume you have some faster way to do it?

Please, share your methods