So what is the proper, real life way to aim torpedos and get a firing solution?

Sailor Steve · 01-06-14, 09:48 AM

That's the way I do it. My only complaint about the WE is that he's perfect. Never makes mistakes. On the other hand I still manage to miss often enough.

LGN1 · 01-06-14, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

That's the way I do it. My only complaint about the WE is that he's perfect. Never makes mistakes. On the other hand I still manage to miss often enough.

H.Sie's great fixes change this. See here (item 2):

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=174225

Regards, LGN1

BigWalleye · 01-06-14, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LGN1

H.Sie's great fixes change this. See here (item 2):

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=174225

Regards, LGN1

There is a lot more to Weapon Officer Assistance than range estimates. There is target identification and firing solution calculation. h.sie's patch introduces uncertainty into visual range estimates only. And, if you are submerged and making periscope observations yourself, you aren't using the Watch Officer (not the Weapons Officer) to give you range estimates anyway. If you have auto plotting updates active, you will get exact positions on the attack plot, not estimates.

I could wish that someone would tackle the task of introducing uncertainty into Target ID, assisted speed estimation, plot position, etc. But since I am not willing to undertake this challenging task myself, I can't in good conscience ask anyone else to do it. So I live with the limitations Ubisoft programmed into the game.

Kanzler_Bismarck · 01-08-14, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

That's the way I do it. My only complaint about the WE is that he's perfect. Never makes mistakes. On the other hand I still manage to miss often enough.

Mine does about 1 and 10 shots it seems goes wide... then one has to hope that they actually detonate... I normally have to fudge the WO's calcs just a touch if I want a one fish kill.

maillemaker · 01-21-14, 09:04 AM

In my last go at making it through the war (I'm in April 1944 and have just gotten my Type XXI last night) I decided to play on 100%+ realism. I say "+" because it is possible with GWX to have it read "100%" realism even with map updates turned on.

For this last go at the war, starting from 1939, I checked every option. I now have no map updates. This totally changes the simulation.

I like BigWalleye's account of things and it sounds reasonable to me. They had a crew to help collect and plot target information.

With no map updates, I find that normally I just guess.

It's amazing in hindsight how easy it is when you have map updates. Which is why this last go around I decided to up the ante and turn it off. With updates, all you have to do is drive up to a ship or a convoy, wait for your watch crew to spot the targets, and then look at your map.

There they all are, laid out for you. It's like having satellite reconnaissance. You can see which ships are big and which are small. You can even pick out the profile of warships from the merchants. And you can draw a line along the axis of the ship hull(s) to plot a perfect course.

When I was stalking a convoy, I'd even draw projected course lines for each row of the convoy, so during my approach I could get right where I wanted to be in the perfect position to hit the juiciest targets.

Likewise, speed determination was simple and dead-accurate. Just raise the scope, make a mark on the map where the contact magically appeared, drop the scope, wait 3:15, raise the scope and make another mark, then draw a line. Presto! You know the speed of the target.

Then all you have to do is approach at 90 degrees, set your TDC for a 90 degree shot and dial in the target speed, zero out the TDC and fire as the target crosses your vertical reticule. Piece of cake.

With no map updates, all this changes.

First of all, you get much better at having a mental picture of the orientation of your submarine on the compass and where the targets are relative to you. No longer can you look at the map to figure out exactly what angle to turn to follow parallel to a target or to approach at 90 degrees. You have to be able to look at a target and estimate its heading relative to yours based on the profile it shows you. This alone makes interceptions difficult.

It is true that you can ask your watch officer the range to closest target and (unless you mod it) this will give you a precise range and bearing which you can then plot on the map. But since both you and the target are moving by the time you have actually gotten to the map and drawn your line (often you have to zoom out and extend the line to the right range since you were zoomed in to be able to see the compass wheel around your sub) both the target and your sub have moved! So even with WO assistance your plot lines probably are +/- 200 meters and +/- 5 degrees. They are only estimates.

As for speed determination, I largely estimate it. 7 knots has become my "default" TDC input speed. The only way you can cheat this is if you get a radio contact report about a convoy in which case it will report its true speed, and you can use that. Otherwise you will have to eyeball the target and based on its nose wake size and how quickly it is moving across your scope you will have to estimate the target speed. The usual speed for merchants is between 5 and 10 knots. If you close to within 500 meters and use 7 knots on a 90 degree approach, you will probably hit the target most of the time. Within 1000 meters you'll probably hit it 80-90% of the time.

Of course the idea of bullseying certain areas of a ship for "critical hit damage" is a thing of the past. You'll be pleased to hit the ship at all. And you should plan on two torpedoes per target if you want a guaranteed sinking. In GWX it seems like about 60% of the time a single torpedo hit will not sink a ship unless you want to hang around two days for it to finally go under. In a convoy that ship is gone and you have wasted a torpedo. A damaged ship is the same as a miss. Most ships will go down with two torpedoes.

Also with no updates it makes escort evasion and hunting a lot harder. With updates on, you can run at periscope depth while being pursued by escorts and stick your scope just above the water and then move to the tactical map and watch, video-game-like, the little icons of the destroyers as they circle, in real time, around your sub. With this method I have gotten quite good at manually dialing the TDC to a torpedo intercept and have successfully many times sunk circling escorts from the TDC map without even using the periscope. Not very realistic.

I suspect that range and angle perception was easier in real life than in on a two-dimensional computer screen. This probably made spacial perception of the relationship between the sub and target easier.

But if you really want to stretch your capabilities, try SH3 with no map updates. You will have to rely entirely on what you can see from the bridge or your scopes and what you can visualize in your head. In this regard, I think it makes the game very real to what real uboat men had to be able to do. They had to be masters of visualizing and solving geometric problems in their heads.

Steve

01-06-14, 09:48 AM	#1
Sailor Steve Eternal Patrol Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: High in the mountains of Utah Posts: 50,369 Downloads: 745 Uploads: 249	That's the way I do it. My only complaint about the WE is that he's perfect. Never makes mistakes. On the other hand I still manage to miss often enough. __________________ “Never do anything you can't take back.” —Rocky Russo

01-21-14, 09:04 AM	#5
maillemaker Sea Lord Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 1,639 Downloads: 75 Uploads: 0	In my last go at making it through the war (I'm in April 1944 and have just gotten my Type XXI last night) I decided to play on 100%+ realism. I say "+" because it is possible with GWX to have it read "100%" realism even with map updates turned on. For this last go at the war, starting from 1939, I checked every option. I now have no map updates. This totally changes the simulation. I like BigWalleye's account of things and it sounds reasonable to me. They had a crew to help collect and plot target information. With no map updates, I find that normally I just guess. It's amazing in hindsight how easy it is when you have map updates. Which is why this last go around I decided to up the ante and turn it off. With updates, all you have to do is drive up to a ship or a convoy, wait for your watch crew to spot the targets, and then look at your map. There they all are, laid out for you. It's like having satellite reconnaissance. You can see which ships are big and which are small. You can even pick out the profile of warships from the merchants. And you can draw a line along the axis of the ship hull(s) to plot a perfect course. When I was stalking a convoy, I'd even draw projected course lines for each row of the convoy, so during my approach I could get right where I wanted to be in the perfect position to hit the juiciest targets. Likewise, speed determination was simple and dead-accurate. Just raise the scope, make a mark on the map where the contact magically appeared, drop the scope, wait 3:15, raise the scope and make another mark, then draw a line. Presto! You know the speed of the target. Then all you have to do is approach at 90 degrees, set your TDC for a 90 degree shot and dial in the target speed, zero out the TDC and fire as the target crosses your vertical reticule. Piece of cake. With no map updates, all this changes. First of all, you get much better at having a mental picture of the orientation of your submarine on the compass and where the targets are relative to you. No longer can you look at the map to figure out exactly what angle to turn to follow parallel to a target or to approach at 90 degrees. You have to be able to look at a target and estimate its heading relative to yours based on the profile it shows you. This alone makes interceptions difficult. It is true that you can ask your watch officer the range to closest target and (unless you mod it) this will give you a precise range and bearing which you can then plot on the map. But since both you and the target are moving by the time you have actually gotten to the map and drawn your line (often you have to zoom out and extend the line to the right range since you were zoomed in to be able to see the compass wheel around your sub) both the target and your sub have moved! So even with WO assistance your plot lines probably are +/- 200 meters and +/- 5 degrees. They are only estimates. As for speed determination, I largely estimate it. 7 knots has become my "default" TDC input speed. The only way you can cheat this is if you get a radio contact report about a convoy in which case it will report its true speed, and you can use that. Otherwise you will have to eyeball the target and based on its nose wake size and how quickly it is moving across your scope you will have to estimate the target speed. The usual speed for merchants is between 5 and 10 knots. If you close to within 500 meters and use 7 knots on a 90 degree approach, you will probably hit the target most of the time. Within 1000 meters you'll probably hit it 80-90% of the time. Of course the idea of bullseying certain areas of a ship for "critical hit damage" is a thing of the past. You'll be pleased to hit the ship at all. And you should plan on two torpedoes per target if you want a guaranteed sinking. In GWX it seems like about 60% of the time a single torpedo hit will not sink a ship unless you want to hang around two days for it to finally go under. In a convoy that ship is gone and you have wasted a torpedo. A damaged ship is the same as a miss. Most ships will go down with two torpedoes. Also with no updates it makes escort evasion and hunting a lot harder. With updates on, you can run at periscope depth while being pursued by escorts and stick your scope just above the water and then move to the tactical map and watch, video-game-like, the little icons of the destroyers as they circle, in real time, around your sub. With this method I have gotten quite good at manually dialing the TDC to a torpedo intercept and have successfully many times sunk circling escorts from the TDC map without even using the periscope. Not very realistic. I suspect that range and angle perception was easier in real life than in on a two-dimensional computer screen. This probably made spacial perception of the relationship between the sub and target easier. But if you really want to stretch your capabilities, try SH3 with no map updates. You will have to rely entirely on what you can see from the bridge or your scopes and what you can visualize in your head. In this regard, I think it makes the game very real to what real uboat men had to be able to do. They had to be masters of visualizing and solving geometric problems in their heads. Steve