Contempt for Japanese ASW...

[Eesocks]

I don't want the sim too easy, or too hard. I want it just right, or as close as I can get it.

So do I, but I've come to realise that true realism in any computer sim is not really possible, the best you can hope for is historical accuracy.And the Japanese convoy protection was inefficient for most of the war due to the IJN using the best escorts and crews for their surface fleet.

Another problem with any sim is that the enemy is computer controlled and your computer always knows exactly where you are!

[Dread Knot]

Originally Posted by Eesocks

And the Japanese convoy protection was inefficient for most of the war due to the IJN using the best escorts and crews for their surface fleet.

Ironically, on those rare occasions when they were released from Combined Fleet work, Japanese fleet destroyers often displayed no greater competence at protecting merchant vessels than the lowly minesweepers, auxiliaries and subchasers which usually got the duty. Despite their elite status, their only practical everyday experience at ASW lay in screening warship task forces, which usually steamed at higher speeds that deterred submarine attacks and substantially simplified the destroyers' job. Not to mention that they tended to look down their noses at such tedious work.

[Admiral Halsey]

Personally I like games that make the player have to do the realistic stuff even if that means the AI is overpowered to a degree. That's is why I like TMO so much as it makes you think like a submariner.

[Bilge_Rat]

there was always an element of randomness in Japanese ASW. It could be very good on occasion. For example, USS Trout was sunk in feb. 44 by 3 veteran IJN DDs after it attacked a convoy. The big problem with the Japanese is they gave up the hunt too quickly.

On to BH's situation, an escort can detect you at 300 feet depending on various factors, i.e.:

http://www.ducimus.net/sh415/ai.htm

It may also be that the escort was dropping the DCs blind and just got a lucky hit. Even when an escort fails to detect you, it will still drop DCs on what it thinks is a likely spot.

[Rammstein0991]

Originally Posted by Dread Knot

Ironically, on those rare occasions when they were released from Combined Fleet work, Japanese fleet destroyers often displayed no greater competence at protecting merchant vessels than the lowly minesweepers, auxiliaries and subchasers which usually got the duty. Despite their elite status, their only practical everyday experience at ASW lay in screening warship task forces, which usually steamed at higher speeds that deterred submarine attacks and substantially simplified the destroyers' job. Not to mention that they tended to look down their noses at such tedious work.

They werent exactly put through the kind of training needed to get to the level we and Britain enjoyed in OUR DD's I think, part of that is no doubt Japan's racist beliefs of the time that they were invincible geniuses and that we were stupid subhuman beasts who couldnt even hold a gun properly, meaning (in their minds) they didnt need to worry about our subs having any success against them.

[Dread Knot]

Originally Posted by Rammstein0991

They werent exactly put through the kind of training needed to get to the level we and Britain enjoyed in OUR DD's I think, part of that is no doubt Japan's racist beliefs of the time that they were invincible geniuses and that we were stupid subhuman beasts who couldnt even hold a gun properly, meaning (in their minds) they didnt need to worry about our subs having any success against them.

I don't know if I would put Japan's issues down to just contempt or arrogance, although it played a part. A big factor was just the pre-war philosophy behind the IJN which was obsessed with winning another decisive Tsushima like battle such as they had won against the Russians in 1905. Actually one Imperial Navy officer after the war summarized it best. "The Japanese naval authorities had confounded the war with battle. We built a fleet for fighting battles instead of one for fighting a war."

This philosophy also hampered Japan in other areas than escorts. Japan never had enough fleet train units, minesweepers, troopships, tenders, MTBs, specialized amphibious craft and logistical ships as well. It was all mostly spent on the battle fleet. To a degree this was true of other nations as well, but Japan was shorter in industrial resources than the USA or Britain, so the disparity was greater.

[Bubblehead1980]

I was talking about my contempt for what I saw was weak escorts, esp the Momi PB once realized it did not have active sonar and it nearly cost me my boat.Some luck was involved but I was in ideal passive sonar conditions, in a Gato and since try to play realistically, I rarely purposely take boat below 300 foot test depth, occasionally 345 to 350(as some skippers did) even though I know boat can go much deeper if forced. My contempt for the perceived weakness of the escorts, esp the momi pb being close by, lead me to stay at scope depth, and speed up to make noise after first three fish hit the large freighter(which was in far column so only fired at it, it was a 50/50 shot but managed to get it) then attacked the small one close by with two fish.

So my contempt and disregard of the threat lead me to take a risk.I tend to take calculated risks on patrol, saw this as one as that but may have overdone it.Combination of my actions, their skill, in optimal conditions and some luck.Definitely will not make same mistake again.

Far as realism, well this is 1944, Japanese ASW was pretty good by then and only improved, late war ASW was effective.TMO with RSRD provides best balance of realism and gameplay.Escorts are tough but not always impossible.I think a mod people must have is the SH AI fix, which stops them from always having active sonar on, they listen until detect you, then go active, this allows you to get close in like in RL undetected, depending on other factors of course.

[TorpX]

Sorry Bubblehead, I didn't intend to derail your thread.

It's just that all the aspects of the game that are broken (or at least do not work right), still annoy me.

Some of Duci's ideas, I like, the frequent course changes for example (i.e. zigging). Some I think went too far, the long range gun fire, for example.

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by TorpX

Sorry Bubblehead, I didn't intend to derail your thread.

It's just that all the aspects of the game that are broken (or at least do not work right), still annoy me.

Some of Duci's ideas, I like, the frequent course changes for example (i.e. zigging). Some I think went too far, the long range gun fire, for example.

No need to apologize, I agree with you for most part.I have made a lot of my personal tweaks and have things just about where want them, target for release is over the christmas holidays when have time to sit down and get all together, think it will help quite a bit.

[Armistead]

Originally Posted by TorpX

Sorry Bubblehead, I didn't intend to derail your thread.

It's just that all the aspects of the game that are broken (or at least do not work right), still annoy me.

Some of Duci's ideas, I like, the frequent course changes for example (i.e. zigging). Some I think went too far, the long range gun fire, for example.

Honestly, most of the pieces are there to fix it, just scattered out in various mods that don't work together...

I don't play anymore, maybe one day, but I got my setup fairly close to where I liked it.

Just finished the "Battle of Java Sea" an older book, but made me want to load up and sink that damn TF.....