Obamacare

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

Where are all the cheerleaders we had in the original Obamacare thread?

I think they gave up on GT a long time ago.

[CaptainMattJ.]

Originally Posted by Oberon

I think they gave up on GT a long time ago.

I think most people have given up on having a reasonable discussion in GT and honestly on the internet in general. There seems to be an overwhelming lack of reasoning and argumentative skills on the whole, while there seems to be never ending amounts of stubborn, pig-headed bantering. There seems to be almost no one left who is actually willing to consider anything that isn't what they want to hear.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

This website sums up everything wrong with GT and the internet in general, and why arguing never ends up getting anywhere nor changing anybody's mind. Ive really considered just bookmarking the website and linking it whenever someone tries to manipulate a debate in such ways, instead of me responding at all.

[Onkel Neal]

I don't know, I have discussions with people in GT and in real life and we don't agree a lot of the time. I can handle that. Some people cannot.

Where are all the cheerleaders we had in the original Obamacare thread?

Perhaps they see people throw out stuff like...
the getto mammas', crack whore's, and Juanita's with anchor baby's ...
and they think that some of the clientele on GT is not worth debating in any rational fashion.
Though as you note, those rather disparaging stereotypes were probably all already paid for under the previous system you had.

But I think the core of the issue over ACA is that most of the "cheerleaders" wanted a system like the noted "liberal" August supports, not the cop out compromise that was passed.

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

Perhaps they see people throw out stuff like...
the getto mammas', crack whore's, and Juanita's with anchor baby's ...
and they think that some of the clientele on GT is not worth debating in any rational fashion.
Though as you note, those rather disparaging stereotypes were probably all already paid for under the previous system you had.

But I think the core of the issue over ACA is that most of the "cheerleaders" wanted a system like the noted "liberal" August supports, not the cop out compromise that was passed.

Yes, those colorfully described folks are already in the system. I believe the new influx automatically signed up for medicaid are those with preexisting conditions. I do not know what noted liberal August supports. The law may not have been a compromise if the bill was actually read before the vote. The website up and running as it should have been after 3 years and $600 million spent. The American public not lied too about being able to keep their plan. Grandfathered in as it were. The law subsequently changed that rendered the once grandfathered plans null and void. Premiums increasing and not decreasing $2500 as peddled by the President. What has been set up is a forthcoming government bailout for the ACA. The young that need to sign up will more than likely take the penalty for the first few years rather than sign up because of sticker shock. The entire system is in shambles. Yet, not one word has been spoken about reducing the cost of healthcare. We have the typical tax and spend elite handle the healthcare like anything else. Tax and spend. Throw money at the problem. Your money.

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

That is in part but many were already on medicaid for free.

Good point. I forgot about medicaid.

The other aspect is the folks with pre-existing conditions. There will be a huge influx of people being able to get treatment. Many of these will be highly subsidized. The only way to afford this is jack up premiums and get the healthy young enrolled....PLUS....see to it that thousands get canceled for sub par insurance as dictated by the ACA. This forces higher premiums.

Which means we are paying for it just the same.

So yeah, you can't keep that plan you like. The fix is in. America is just starting to smell the coffee. Where are all the cheerleaders we had in the original Obamacare thread?

You mean Obama lied? Shocker.


EDIT:

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

I don't know, I have discussions with people in GT and in real life and we don't agree a lot of the time. I can handle that. Some people cannot.

Personally, I draw a distinct line between Internet, and real life. When discussing anything in real life, you have facial expressions, tones of voice, and body language. In real life, there are two topics i tend to avoid. Politics and religion. Which isn't to say I haven't discussed them in real life, i just try not do. More often then not, you know just how far to discuss it, when to let it go, and when to just disagree. Because the person your talking to is right there in front of you, and personally I don't discuss much with someone I don't already know, and no we don't always agree.

Internet is different in my book. You have NONE of what I described above. So i'll call it like i see it, because theres not much else to go on; and truthfully, I don't have much desire or patience to argue anything on any forum for very long. If you let yourself go at it too long, you end up wasting A LOT of time, writing a bunch of crap aimed at someone you really don't even know, have never met, and in reality, could probably give two cents about. In fact, you don't even know their name. All for what? Getting the last word in? Stoking ones own ego? It can almost be likened to intellectual masturbation. I tend to keep my posts short for this reason, and I skim or gloss over stunningly long walls of text, also for this reason.

Arguing on the internet. I'm just not really into it anymore, so I don't put much time in it. Getting the last word in, will net me nothing but wasted time. Just my nickles worth on that subject.

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

Good point. I forgot about medicaid.



Which means we are paying for it just the same.



You mean Obama lied? Shocker.

Yes, we pay for it just the same but quite a few are not welfare queens. These are folks that could afford or have insurance but a preexisting condition is not paid by insurance. The insurance industry has worn out the nonpaying preexisting condition ploy IMO.

Yes, he lied. But, perhaps he was just reading what the teleprompter was scrolling. This then makes one ask, "Just what does this guy know?" He seems to know nothing at the most convenient times.

[Wolferz]

'nuff said?

Obamacare is just like any other program the government sticks its nose in.
Too much, too soon. Over bearing, clumsy and just crap all the way around. Designed for one purpose. Putting money in the pockets of rich investors. In other words, politics as usual.
After all, it was the wealthy elite who started the medical boondoggle we know today.

[August]

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

Sebelius should be shown the door.

That's a problem I have with this administration. Every time they screw up one of them takes the public stage to claim responsibility but there never seem to be any consequences for it.

It seems to be the modern political equivalent of "my bad". That fake apology that's used to avoid any real ownership of a mistake.

[Platapus]

When a politician states "I take full responsibility", what they actually mean is that you should not talk about it any more.

I would love for the press to respond to "I take full responsibility" with "What does that mean Senator/Representative/Mr. President?" and wait for an answer.

Perhaps this is a question the citizens need to start asking.

Of course the whole idea of a politician being responsible and accountable is laughable at the start... Except that fewer and fewer of us are laughing.

Speaking of which, in Virginia, we are having an election on Tuesday. It will be interesting to see exactly how many people are unhappy with the state government. In a democratically elected government, there is only one poll that really counts.

The difference between what people tell pollsters and how they vote can be surprising.

[Armistead]

Totally agree with the above, when someone declares they take responsibility, it's just code that no one is going to lose a job.

This morning I bet I heard a dozen times "the American people voted for Obamacare", but fact is the program is hardly what we voted for....

I don't see the GOP winning the pres office anytime soon unless things get real bad. They're too divided..... I think they're many that believe in the principles of small govt, but they're also socially liberal. As long as the GOP connects radical religious principles to the platform, forget it...

[Bubblehead1980]

After a count, 14 people I know have lost their insurance, all under 30, I can not find a plan on the exchanges even close to the low prices were paying before since obamacare requires them to carry things on their policies they do not want nor do they need, but big brother says they do.Around half of them voted for obama both times.Normally I would gloat, but it's just sad watching this play out yet it makes me angry as they are just shocked and confused when they refused to listen to those of us sounding the alarm on this many and his policies for five years, especially this one.They refused to do research on him and think independently instead of buying into the identity politics and emotional driven propaganda from obama and his loyal band of ignorant followers.SMH, sad

[Platapus]

I have lost faith that the GOP is for smaller government. I can't remember any GOP president, in my lifetime, that moved for smaller government. All the Republicans and Democrats want to do is make specific parts of the government smaller (cut funding) while increasing other parts (increase funding).

It would not be all that bad if it was a zero gain, but both parties want to expand "their" favourite parts of the government more than cutting the parts they don't like.

End result from both parties -- increased size and cost of government.

The political spectrum in the US is not accurately depicted as a straight line (left, center, right) but more a mobius strip.

[Wolferz]

Originally Posted by Platapus

I have lost faith that the GOP is for smaller government. I can't remember any GOP president, in my lifetime, that moved for smaller government. All the Republicans and Democrats want to do is make specific parts of the government smaller (cut funding) while increasing other parts (increase funding).

It would not be all that bad if it was a zero gain, but both parties want to expand "their" favourite parts of the government more than cutting the parts they don't like.

End result from both parties -- increased size and cost of government.

The political spectrum in the US is not accurately depicted as a straight line (left, center, right) but more a mobius strip.

And here I thought it looked more like a trapezoidal parallelogram trying to solve its own hypotonuse.

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by Platapus

I have lost faith that the GOP is for smaller government. I can't remember any GOP president, in my lifetime, that moved for smaller government. All the Republicans and Democrats want to do is make specific parts of the government smaller (cut funding) while increasing other parts (increase funding).

It would not be all that bad if it was a zero gain, but both parties want to expand "their" favourite parts of the government more than cutting the parts they don't like.

End result from both parties -- increased size and cost of government.

The political spectrum in the US is not accurately depicted as a straight line (left, center, right) but more a mobius strip.

Without us taking away from the discussion, which is about obamacare, I will say Reagan is the only one who made a real effort but due to the cold war, he was forced to spend to win.Yes, his military budget increased but he rebuilt the US military and I know his detractors will try to say his efforts did not lead to the end of the cold war but they did.Instead of "dicking" around with them as every President since end of WW II had, he called them out, confronted communism head on.This contributed in a major way to the fall of the soviet union.

Fact is, we will never see the small government we want again because too many depend on the government for their job, or welfare benefits, healthcare etc.The Federal government was NEVER supposed to be the factor in the daily lives of americans that it is, but sadly it is entrenched now and about half of this country that votes will never let it be rolled back to where it needs to be.Best can hope for is vote for the real, small government, libertarian conservative candidates who will do their absolute best.Rand Paul is a great example, would see things rolled back as much as possible, of course it depends on who controls congress as well.A "regular" Republican and especially a Democrat(their ideology is about a large, centralized government) will never deliver what we need.

The Bush years and especially the obama years are just absolute proof of why we must do our best to to make the federal government a non factor in our daily lives.Hopefully with the disaster of obamacare will get us a bettewr congress next year and a decent president in 2016 it will keep the Dems and RINO types out of power long enough to facilitate a real recovery.

I do wish we could get the momentum to repeal the Federal Reserve Act and 16th amendment, starve the beast of it's money and thus it's power, but doubt it will happen anytime soon, if ever.Too many Americans are too ignorant to even know why this needs to happen.