An apology to our allies.

[CaptainMattJ.]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

I find the espousing of more regulation of any sort, coming from anyone living in a state that has done just that and is bleeding money as a result; to be lacking in credibility.

Says the diehard republican living in Utah. If you're going to push that fallacy like you have many times in the past, at least don't be so obviously hypocritical.

I'm not about to say I'm sorry for what the Zipheads that run this Country do.
So you got Spyed on. Big deal. Only reason anyone bitches is it's in the open. (Or is it?)
Spying has gone on since Man got Eyes.
Get over it, figure out how to prtect yourselves, and move on.
Cause no matter what you are told?
They will STILL Spy on you!

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by CaptainMattJ.

Just because you're so partisan it hurts, doesn't mean everyone that disagrees with you is too.

I'm partisan? You need to look in the mirror. Your oozing hardline democrat between the lines almost every time you post.

edit:

Originally Posted by CaptainMattJ.

Says the diehard republican living in Utah. If you're going to push that fallacy like you have many times in the past, at least don't be so obviously hypocritical.

And here you just proved that you are hardcore partisan.

How's that view from california?

Because while it sounds like something that might have happened, I've read two good biographies on Franklin and I don't recall that. That could be my memory, or it could be because both authors left it out. I'd just like to know.

In that case.
The Jacobites, Frank Mclynn.
Jacobite spy wars, Hugh Douglas.

[Sailor Steve]

Thanks, I'll check them out.

[CaptainMattJ.]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

I'm partisan? You need to look in the mirror. Your oozing hardline democrat between the lines almost every time you post.

edit:


And here you just proved that you are hardcore partisan.

So your proof that i'm partisan is that i used the SAME fallacy you did to try and slander me to prove a point? Are you serious?

Notice how i never once took sides with the democrats on immigration. notice how i never took their side on affirmative action, or Arizona's SB 1070. notice how ive been saying that the ACA needs big reform and that it doesn't fix the biggest issue in healthcare which is the cost. I think that welfare should be reformed to weed out the moochers. While i questioned the importance of owning selective-fire rifles, i never condoned its banning nor do i believe other guns should be banned, if anything only regulated to close the gunshow loophole. I also pointed how i thought that the democrats in sacramento have severely damaged this state.

And i disagree with the democrats on these issues because i came to my own conclusion, free of both parties.

You, on the other hand, rarely ever point out republican incompetence and selectively only try to slander democrats, or anyone you label a democrat because they take an opposing viewpoint. I also cannot recall a single major issue you part ways with republicans on.

How can you accuse others of partisanship when you yourself are a self-proclaimed republican?

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by CaptainMattJ.

So your proof that i'm partisan is that i used the SAME fallacy you did to try and slander me to prove a point? Are you serious?

Whatevver. I've had you pegged for a hardliner democrat for a LONG time now. They way I have you figured, when it comes to living in a total democrat utopia, with no guns, no individual rights, and a total herd mentality, I think you'll be the first in line. I half expect you to tell me i need to "evolve". A line that the progressive types use all too often.

Notice how i never once took sides with the democrats on....

No. After awhile, i stopped reading carefully, and just started to skim, because I was pretty sure whatever you had to say, I wasn't going to like it. Ever notice how my replies tend to be short and direct?

And i disagree with the democrats on these issues because i came to my own conclusion, free of both parties.

You disagree with the democrats? You just stood there and basicaly spouted the democratic obamabot line of how he's trying to help the american people but can't because those evil republicans! That is a load of crock! He's a lying and manipulative bastard.

You, on the other hand, rarely ever point out republican incompetence and selectively only try to slander democrats, or anyone you label a democrat because they take an opposing viewpoint. I also cannot recall a single major issue you part ways with republicans on.

The enemy of my enemy is my friend. It's the Democrats and the Obama administration that is pushing for bigger government, with farther reaching authority into our individual lives. It's this current government that is largely influenced by the democrats that is pissing on our enumerated rights, every chance it gets, and not all of it makes the major news outlets. If 1984 is ever going to make that transition from political rhetoric to cold hard reality, i strongly believe it's the democrats and the liberal progressive types that will get us there. So I see the republicans, though they are not guilt free, as the lesser of the two evil's in this regard.

How can you accuse others of partisanship when you yourself are a self-proclaimed republican?

I NEVER said I was a republican. Ever.

Three things I strongly dislike right now is this current government, Obama and California, and I see all three as far left, with one jaunt over to the red with the patriot act. Something from the far right, i freaking hate. To say nothing of the NDAA.

[Penguin]

Originally Posted by privateer

I'm not about to say I'm sorry for what the Zipheads that run this Country do.

Most of us Euros are perfectly capable to differ between your government and your citizens - that's why we applaud your leaders when they visit and tar and feather any Yank we can get our hands on when we see them in the streets.

Does that mean I should apologize for the Priests that play with little boys even though I'm not Catholic?

[Penguin]

Originally Posted by privateer

Does that mean I should apologize for the Priests that play with little boys even though I'm not Catholic?

As a Reverend I say: Do that which is right!

(The applause smiley in my former post was sincere: no need to apologize as long as you're not one of those zipperheads. )

Ok. Cool!
I just didn't want to visit and get tarred and feathered in public.
I try to keep that kind of stuff in the bedroom.

No. After awhile, i stopped reading carefully, and just started to skim, because I was pretty sure whatever you had to say, I wasn't going to like it.

If ever there was any doubt about you having a closed mind since you "discovered" politics its certainly answered.

[Bilge_Rat]

This is rich. Apparently, it was French and Spanish intelligence services that spied on their own citizens, then shared the data with the NSA:

NSA spy row: France and Spain 'shared phone data' with US

Spain and France's intelligence agencies carried out collection of phone records and shared them with NSA, agency says

European intelligence agencies and not American spies were responsible for the mass collection of phone records which sparked outrage in France and Spain, the US has claimed.

General Keith Alexander, the head of the National Security Agency, said reports that the US had collected millions of Spanish and French phone records were "absolutely false".


"To be perfectly clear, this is not information that we collected on European citizens," Gen Alexander said when asked about the reports, which were based on classified documents leaked by Edward Snowden, the former NSA contractor.


Shortly before the NSA chief appeared before a Congressional committee, US officials briefed the Wall Street Journal that in fact Spain and France's own intelligence agencies had carried out the surveillance and then shared their findings with the NSA.


The anonymous officials claimed that the monitored calls were not even made within Spanish and French borders and could be surveillance carried on outside of Europe.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...a-with-US.html

so now I'm confused, is someone supposed to apologise on behalf of France and Spain?

[Herr-Berbunch]

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

. . . so now I'm confused, is someone supposed to apologise on behalf of France and Spain?

Oui, Si.

Translated (in a fashion) in to English pronunciation - We see. Oh the conspiracy!!!

[Bilge_Rat]

with very little digging, it turns out the German BND, their equivalent to the NSA, is doing the very same kind of spying/monitoring as the NSA. The NSA and the BND also share extensive info:

Why are the media ignoring the NSA’s relationship with German intelligence?

As I wrote last week, cooperation between the American NSA and the BND, Germany’s foreign intelligence agency, is extensive and intimate. The German magazine Der Spiegel has done some worthy reporting on this. The NSA-BND cooperation angle was prominent in the German press over the summer, after Edward Snowden’s initial revelations about PRISM had first been reported. Der Spiegel revealed in July, based on Snowden’s pilfered documents and other sources, that the connections between the NSA and the BND are much tighter than previously thought and include extensive data sharing and the monitoring of phone calls and other electronic communications. The head of the BND, Gerhard Schindler, has acknowledged the relationship. Hans-Peter Friedrich, the German Interior Minister, expressed thanks for “information provided by our American friends” to thwart terrorist attacks, even as he and others claimed not to know anything about the agencies’ cooperation. Merkel includes herself in the axis of ignorance.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/ro...-intelligence/

The Europeans are happy to help the United States spy on everybody. They just won't admit it

The joint NSA-BND monitoring facility in Bad Aibling, which everyone is supposed to pretend doesn’t exist, is still operational. Gerhard Schindler, the BND’s chief, has essentially admitted to cooperation with the NSA before a European Parliament intelligence committee in July. The Bad Aibling site was crucial to the NSA and BND’s last joint venture on the controversial Echelon program. This too monitored mass communications and included spying by America, Britain, Canada and Australia, according to Der Spiegel. More recently, similar cooperation between European intelligence agencies and the NSA has been documented elsewhere in Europe, including Sweden.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/ro...wont-admit-it/

Mass Data: Transfers from Germany Aid US Surveillance

German intelligence sends massive amounts of intercepted data to the NSA, according to documents from whistleblower Edward Snowden, which SPIEGEL has seen. The trans-Atlantic cooperation on technical matters is also much closer than first thought

Day after day and month after month, the BND passes on to the NSA massive amounts of connection data relating to the communications it had placed under surveillance. The so-called metadata -- telephone numbers, email addresses, IP connections -- then flow into the Americans' giant databases.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/...-a-914821.html



given the close ties between the German BND and the NSA, it is hard to believe the Germans themselves did not know the Chancellor's communications were being monitored.

sooooooo..do we now need someone to apologise on behalf of Germany?