[WIP] A New MegaMod

[Targor Avelany]

last quote is privateer's, not mine, gap. I can't take credit for that, haha

In regards to static/vs on the sea balloons: the idea of having a bit of animation for the balloons is nice, but do we really need it? Generally you would see the balloons only through periscope and moderate range, so quality is not that crazy-important.

It also means that you would need 2 types of the balloons in the game, with 2 different models.

I will play around with possibilities and controllers and see what will work.

[gap]

Originally Posted by Targor Avelany

last quote is privateer's, not mine, gap. I can't take credit for that, haha

My mistake, I have just corrected it

Originally Posted by Targor Avelany

In regards to static/vs on the sea balloons: the idea of having a bit of animation for the balloons is nice, but do we really need it? Generally you would see the balloons only through periscope and moderate range, so quality is not that crazy-important.

It also means that you would need 2 types of the balloons in the game, with 2 different models.

There were three possible usage for barrage balloons:

- land based
- fitted aboard barges and tugboats at anchor near ports, estuaries, etc.
- fitted aboat sea-going vessels, especially warships and landing crafts (in this case I think only the smaller model, i.e. "D-Day type" to put it clear was used).

Until we convert dat ships into GR2 units, at least the second usage will require dat balloon anyway (GR2 euipment is rendered totally black on dat ships). Since we are at it, why not trying to give dat balloons some nice extra effects?

Originally Posted by Targor Avelany

I will play around with possibilities and controllers and see what will work.

I am currently busy with the FXU 0.0.22 fix, but let me know if you need for help with the controllers.

Originally Posted by Targor Avelany

It also means that you would need 2 types of the balloons in the game, with 2 different models.

That is kind of incorrect. And it does go to discusions I've had with gap about how 3D models can/do work in all SH Versions.

The first thing you need to over come is the thought that you need multi-3d Models for any reason. That is not true and it has been proven.

The second thing you need to understand is how to use a single 3D model when and where you want it. That part is easy once you do it!

So as an example I'll use all the little lifeboats on each ship in Game.
Why are there so many in each ship? And this is GR2 and dat related!

We know that every 3D model gets planted into memory at some point.
The more the 3D models? The heavier it all gets.
Now what if you reduce the actual 3D model count and do a reference call to a single model that renders as if you didn't do a thing?
Does that work? Yep. Check the Munsell Fort in GWX 3 for the perfect example! And I learned that from STOCK files in SH3!

Why did the Dev's not use this in versions beyound SH3? I'll risk thinking they had a sort of codeing blinder on.
As they went from 3 to 4 to version 5? I can see this type blinder at work. Not saying they fail at their job.
They understood the code they were forced to work with. We found flaws and ways to work around them.

Look at SH3 files. Once you remove dynamic shadows? Why is code still in the dats that has no reason? Cost and time say just disable that. It still gets loaded in memory but we ain't gonna use it. (Yes I have seen it loaded into memory)

So if you have done a basic import of SH4 Units to SH5? How much actual garbage did you drag in that may cause problems?
How well does anyone actually understand how to slim this type issue down?
You want to drop lag issues and such?

[gap]

Originally Posted by privateer

That is kind of incorrect. And it does go to discusions I've had with gap about how 3D models can/do work in all SH Versions.

yep, given the limitation of SH5 game engine which have already started showing up (see the random ctd's discussion going on since 2-3 weeks ago) the future of SH5 modding is all about optimization.

@ Targor

I think I have the concept presented by privateer pretty clear in my mind and I can provide some practica examples, if you want. In short, instead of having multiple instances of the same mesh inported in game files as individual objects, we can have just one of them, which can be linked to as many nodes/bones as we want. The linking can be intra- and inter- files.

Multiple references to the same mesh in one file are done through the Model Id property of each node. The same model id can be used multiple times in a file, as far as its index number is lower than the index number of the nodes that the model gets linked to. This is relative to dat models. Doing the same with GR2 models is theoretically feasible but still not possible due to a limitation of TDW's editor, which limits us to only have a bone binding per mesh.

As for the linking of a model in a file to a bone/node in a second file, there's the Mergectrl controller for it. IIRC the same controller can be used for both GR2 and dat files, if not, a similar controller is used for dat objects. So, if for instance we needed for two balloon ship equipments, each with its own operation height, but using the same balloon model, we should create 2 files containing just cables of different heights. Then, we could give the two files two MergeCtrl controllers, containing referencse to the one common balloon body model, stored in a third file. If the two equipments will happen to be rendered in game at the same time, the game will need to load the balloon meshes just one time, rather than two

P.S: privateer, please correct me if I have reported wrong or incomplete information

Seems you have the concept down Mate.


The GWX4 project looked heavily towards this very idea.
Slim the demands on how the Game Engine uses files to improve preformance. Then improve 3D model files for the eye candy.

We looked at how many ships are in the Game and what parts of those ships are repeated. The numbers of same 3D models will blow your mind!
Lifeboats alone is crazy! 3 or 4 models would cover all the lifeboats alone.

Given the repeat 3D models in all the files? Can you see what type saveings could be done?

[THE_MASK]

Some of the modded dds files are crazy sizes and yes the score for optimisation mods for SH5 so far is 0 out of 10 . Just buy a bigger graphics card LOL .

[gap]

Originally Posted by sober

Some of the modded dds files are crazy sizes and yes the score for optimisation mods for SH5 so far is 0 out of 10 . Just buy a bigger graphics card LOL .

I would recommend you and Rongel adding "DynEnv v2.9 - 2. Main Mod Low Resolution Patch" to your respective mod lists. The super detailed textures contained in the main mod are good for screenies, but no one will notice the difference in action... oh well, on average systems there is actually going to be a probable side effect to it: smoother frame rates

[THE_MASK]

Originally Posted by gap

I would recommend you and Rongel adding "DynEnv v2.9 - 2. Main Mod Low Resolution Patch" to your respective mod lists. The super detailed textures contained in the main mod are good for screenies, but no one will notice the difference in action... oh well, on average systems there is actually going to be a probable side effect to it: smoother frame rates

added

[Targor Avelany]

@gap and privateer:
Understood the concept. Thank for very good explanation. I assumed that something along those lines should exist, as it is basic concepts of inheritance and child objects.
Considering the comment in regard to limitations that we currently have with the gr2 files for every model hat we will be working on we will need to decide if we should be doing it dat or gr2 files based on what exactly we are looking from it: animations, ability to link/child it out, add properties.
We currently can do a lot with dats, but I'm still not sure how well the interlacing the dat and gr2 files could be. I know TDW, for example, was able to merge dat animated file on a gr2 model: his flag mod. So far in my attempts I was it able to achieve even that. And that is a simple repetitive animation.

But now I'm just thinking aloud. A little rumble.

Will continue working on the balloon tomorrow

[gap]

Originally Posted by privateer

Seems you have the concept down Mate.

I am glad to hear it, and always grateful to you for having put us in the right direction

Maybe I have found yet another application for this brilliant concept. As you know, stock SHIII, IV and 5's ship cargo meshes are modelled as an entire block of crates, barrels, etc. rather that being composed by individual elements. The zone that their damage box is assigned to, is set as 'not destructible', but as soon as as you switch it to 'destructible' the trick becomes evident. Well, during a test carried out with Rongel's help, we were able to put aboard the ships of a whole convoy some custom made cargo models, each one composed by 60 iterations of the same barrel mesh. No stuttering was reported until Rongel made the barrels to explode. Due to the way I set their zone, the first damaged barrels started a chain reaction, and the huge explosion which followed caused severe lagging (Rongel, correct me if I am wrong).

The main cause of the lagging was probably the triggering of 80 explosion effects, or rather than the physical animation of so many individual objects at once, or both. I any case I have already thought of a workaround for avoiding this and, most important, the whlole test had demosntrated the validity of the concept you have pointed us to

Originally Posted by Targor Avelany

@gap and privateer:
Understood the concept. Thank for very good explanation. I assumed that something along those lines should exist, as it is basic concepts of inheritance and child objects.

Originally Posted by privateer

Considering the comment in regard to limitations that we currently have with the gr2 files for every model hat we will be working on we will need to decide if we should be doing it dat or gr2 files based on what exactly we are looking from it: animations, ability to link/child it out, add properties.
We currently can do a lot with dats, but I'm still not sure how well the interlacing the dat and gr2 files could be. I know TDW, for example, was able to merge dat animated file on a gr2 model: his flag mod. So far in my attempts I was it able to achieve even that. And that is a simple repetitive animation.

But now I'm just thinking aloud. A little rumble.

Will continue working on the balloon tomorrow

This is the work plan I am suggesting:

I think we should keep the GR2 model you are currently working on as air unit, for usage as land based balloon. This will have a couple of important advantages:

• Ability to use multi textures on the same model through cfg file settings, which we would loose if we made the balloon body external from the main unit file. Just make sure to use the cfg#TXR tag on balloon's main material, for letting us to set different roundels (or no roundel) throughout the campaign.
  
  
• Ability to assign a LOD model to it, likewise other GR2 units (and unlike dat units). This is going to be especially useful where many balloons are gathered in a coastal area, reducing performance hit. On this topic, we should check if there is any special extended property that we must set properly for the LOD model to be shown at the wanted distance.

As for shipborne balloons, imo we should import them into a dat file for maximum compatibility with dat ships, and set them similarly to carrier's planes. Some remearks:

• Maybe it is better if we use directly the lod version meshes on data balloons (I think I have sent them to you already).
  
  
• We can make them more nice by giving them some swinging effects, and for completeness we could add to their meshes a simple winch model. Some of the pictures displayed in the websites I have linked on OH's thread show those winches.
  
  
• The lenght of shipborne balloon suspension cables should be a lot shorter than for land based balloons. I don't remember exactly their usual operation altitude, but again the websites I have used as sources have all the information we need.
  
  
• If needed, the "privateer concept" is a cheap way to model more than one shipborne balloon, each with different height and texture. This would be done by combining a single balloon body mesh (with different diffuse textures mapped on) and 2-3 cable meshes of different lenghts, everything packed in one file
  
  
• The smaller balloon model used on sea-going vessels (the one manned aboard by D-Day landing crafts) would be a nice addition, but we can let it for a future expansion of the mod.

That's all for now. What do you think?

[Rongel]

Hey Targor, I got this weird, although pretty humorous result when using your lifeboats: they start to sink as soon as they are spawned

No wooden lifeboat stays on water. You can see the installation order I'm using at the front page, can you help to solve this mystery? Either something is over-riding it's functions, corrupt install or something else. I think it's still a powerful image:

[plj]

Secret wish to become a u-boat crew ?

[Targor Avelany]

Oh, wow!!
I'll look into it, thank you for letting me know.
I'm wondering if something n rds makes them sink

@gap

There is a lod controller but not a single Unit in SH5 uses it so it's probably used only by the dll/act/exe files I found references to.
I also noted that those files look for the .GR2 extension for the most part.

I do recall a conversation with 'Dan The Man' about the rendering of the inside of the Turm. I stated that I thought maybe it was to much until he told me at a given range the insides were no longer rendered in Game.
I doubt this will work but take a LOD.gr2 file from say the Iceburg and rename it.
Place it in the folder and see if it crashes your Game, Demagnitizes your fridge magnets, causes your cat (If you have one) to loose all its hair, and chases away any Girl friends.

Remember to do a quick rename of the internal parts to avoid ID conflicts!
Then come back and tell us it didn't work and I wasted your time.

Originally Posted by Targor Avelany

Oh, wow!!
I'll look into it, thank you for letting me know.
I'm wondering if something n rds makes them sink

What is rds?