Realistic Enemy AI?

Dread Knot · 10-15-13, 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Capt. Morgan

You have to remember that "early war" for the I.J.N. was 1937. By 1941 they were a highly seasoned force.

Indeed, the Japanese were highly seasoned. They had practiced hard for years for a decisive battle with the US somewhere in the Central Pacific. Some of the their carrier pilots were already aces in the war in China, and they had gained valuable experience in shore bombardment and naval landings in the same conflict.

But ASW was always a blind spot with them. Escort management within the Imperial Navy was almost an incidental activity in prewar days. Those few officers charged with these matters handled it on a part time or indirect basis. There was no central agency for realistic and comprehensive maritime planning. Just a few months before Pearl Harbor, the only Japanese institution still conducting ASW instruction was the Navy Torpedo School, with a heavy emphasis on attacking with torpedoes, not defending against them. Even there, anti submarine research was the part time domain of one officer.

Like the US naval submariners, the Japanese ASW forces started the war pretty green.

Admiral Halsey · 10-15-13, 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dread Knot

Just a few months before Pearl Harbor, the only Japanese institution still conducting ASW instruction was the Navy Torpedo School, with a heavy emphasis on attacking with torpedoes, not defending against them. Even there.

They thought they could attack a sub that would almost certainly be underwater with torpedoes? If they had the technology of today sure but in the 40's?

Dread Knot · 10-15-13, 10:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Admiral Halsey

They thought they could attack a sub that would almost certainly be underwater with torpedoes? If they had the technology of today sure but in the 40's?

I'm not speaking of DD torpedoes versus submarines. The IJN Torpedo school primarily taught the surface fleet cadets how to use torpedoes in battle against other surface warships. All Japanese destroyers, light cruisers and heavy cruisers were pretty liberally supplied with torpedoes. As part that instruction the torpedo school taught traditional ASW techniques as well ( Hydrophones, sonar, depth charges drills etc,)

Not long after hostilities commenced, the Torpedo School relinquished supervision over ASW matters to the Navy Mine School, an institution younger and less prestigious than the gunnery and torpedo schools. ASW instruction seems to have been the red-headed stepchild no one in the IJN wanted.

Eesocks · 10-28-13, 07:55 AM

Over the last few weeks I've been using various combo's of mods. And having decided which ones to go for I started a new career out of Manilla in Dec 41'.
4 days into the patrol I got a conact, it was a lone merchant which I tracked for nearly 2 hrs to get in good position for an attack.
Weather was no wind or rain and light fog and there was no moon, I positioned my sub 2000 yards off it's track stopped rigged for silent at 3ft below periscope depth and waited. When the sonar operator announced it was at a bearing of 40degrees I raised the attack periscope to take a look and could just make out a vague shadow at that moment it turned on it's searchlights, speeded up and changed course, it knew I was there! how?.
I don't mind a challenge but that was ridiculous!

Definately time to dumb down the AI at least on the merchants

I was using TMO 2.5 OTC and some enviromental mods

Dread Knot · 10-28-13, 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eesocks

I was using TMO 2.5 OTC and some enviromental mods

Sounds like the RFB mod would be more your speed. In TMO even the lowly merchants have their visual sensor numbers enhanced.

I believe there is a version of TMO that has the AI reduced a bit.

Bilge_Rat · 10-28-13, 10:15 AM

TMO and RFB are both pretty much the best in terms of tweaking the AI in SH4. It is really a matter of taste.

The TMO AI is more challenging, but not unrealistically so. I use TMO 2.5 and have managed to get within 1500 yards of IJN DDs on the surface at night without being spotted when stopped, although I have been spotted by IJN warships at 8,000 yds at night when moving at flank speed.

Underwater, if the AI detects you or knows where you are, it can be deadly. I have been nailed by DCs at 400 feet as well, although that was only once. Usually, I manage to stay undetected and escape.

I just went through an attack by two IJN ships in july 43 around Truk. I was at 350 feet the whole time, silent running. They never detected me even though they went right over me a few times and dropped all their DCs far away.

The Merchant AI is a mixed bag. I use RSRDC so I don't encounter them that often. I have tracked them on the surface at night getting as close as 3,000 yds without being spotted. On my current patrol, I recently sank a 2,000 tonner during the day submerged. As I recall, the range was down to 1,500-2,000 yds, again without being spotted. However, I have been spotted submerged at night at around 2,000 yds.

One good tip is to limit periscope exposure to the strict minimum, just quick peeks to confirm your firing solution. I also dont use the "periscope depth" setting but choose a depth around 5 feet deeper so the scope is just breaking the surface. That is a trick I picked up from SH5 and SHO where you can choose how far to extend the scope and it impacts how far your scope can be spotted. I don't know if it is modeled in SH4, but it is safer to assume it is.

Bubblehead1980 · 10-28-13, 11:12 AM

TMO with RSRD is the best route the way I see it.Especially with various modifications for TMO, can tweak it just right.I have a couple mods I put together for TMO that change things, eliminates the unrealistic "death blows" except in rare circumstances and tweaks depth charges a bit more, if can get them to upload.stay tuned.

donna52522 · 10-28-13, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eesocks

Over the last few weeks I've been using various combo's of mods. And having decided which ones to go for I started a new career out of Manilla in Dec 41'.
4 days into the patrol I got a conact, it was a lone merchant which I tracked for nearly 2 hrs to get in good position for an attack.
Weather was no wind or rain and light fog and there was no moon, I positioned my sub 2000 yards off it's track stopped rigged for silent at 3ft below periscope depth and waited. When the sonar operator announced it was at a bearing of 40degrees I raised the attack periscope to take a look and could just make out a vague shadow at that moment it turned on it's searchlights, speeded up and changed course, it knew I was there! how?.
I don't mind a challenge but that was ridiculous!

Definately time to dumb down the AI at least on the merchants

I was using TMO 2.5 OTC and some enviromental mods

If it's TMO 2.5 with Easier AI that you are looking for, try the mod in the link below.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/down...o=file&id=3542

TorpX · 10-28-13, 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eesocks

... When the sonar operator announced it was at a bearing of 40degrees I raised the attack periscope to take a look and could just make out a vague shadow at that moment it turned on it's searchlights, speeded up and changed course, it knew I was there! how?.
I don't mind a challenge but that was ridiculous!

Definately time to dumb down the AI at least on the merchants

I was using TMO 2.5 OTC and some enviromental mods

I can understand why you are unhappy. If this sort of thing is happening, it is patently unrealistic.

I will suggest you consider another course of action:

1. dump the enviromental mods; one might be screwing up TMO.

2. dump everything and use RFB (with or without the corresponding version of RSRDC).

Quote:

However, I have been spotted submerged at night at around 2,000 yds.

You said TMO is not unrealistically challanging, but isn't spotting a periscope at night at 2,000 yds. unrealistic?

merc4ulfate · 10-28-13, 11:48 PM

"Therefore you do not take stupid chances" from an above post.

Fortune Favors the Bold.

I'll take a stupid chances everyday over an adversary who expects school taught tactics. Doing what is not expected will get you another days fight and most likely a sinking to boot. Making runs flank speed let em chase you and send them to the bottom with one down the throat.

Drop down to 350 feet and crawl within 800 yards go all stop and rise to periscope depth and blast them out of the water with such little time that they can not even move out of the way.

Out run a convoy and sit 160 meters down waiting for the lead escort to pass then rise and fire at your closest target from bow and stern tube and head off to the rear of the convoy flank speed and back to 160 meters.

You have to say to yourself every day ... I am already dead. Once you get that in your head chances are your boldness and brash tactics will baffle them.

Ever went all back full while being depth charged? Why not? That simple maneuver has gotten me out of so many jams. They know your heading, they hear your engines, they expect you to dive deep while moving straight a head.

What they do not expect is for you to go all back full, left full rudder to line up a shot on them after they pass you missing with every depth charge they have dropped. This has me sinking either them or giving my self a chance to then drop down while they are making their turn back towards me. It has sure saved my hide on hedgehog attacks many times.

Bilge_Rat · 10-29-13, 08:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TorpX

You said TMO is not unrealistically challanging, but isn't spotting a periscope at night at 2,000 yds. unrealistic?

probably, but on the other hand I managed to get within 1500 yds of a IJN TF, 1 CL, 2 DD on the surface at night before being spotted.

It is more than just distance, there are many factors at work, including the skill level of the AI. I had compared the RFB and TMO AI files sometimes back. TMO is not across the board harder, just tweaked differently. As I recall, In TMO, you will generally be spotted quicker then in RFB in daytime, nice weather, no wind/waves. OTOH, you will generally be spotted quicker in RFB then in TMO in choppy/windy/stormy weather.

Again the nice thing about SH4 is that there are many variations of AI to suit every player's personal style. I personally like the TMO 2.5 AI because it is the most challenging to play against.

Eesocks · 10-29-13, 06:13 PM

As it turned out I'm thankful for that merchant, if it wasn't for the 6hrs(game time) chasing it I wouldn't have sunk my 1st Battleship a few hrs later, I would have been miles away!

I fired 4 torps from my stern tubes from 3000 yds before diving deep to 400 ft. One escort was within 2500 yds when I fired but never realised I was even there. And none of the escorts detected me even though it was nearly 3 hrs before they went away. I surfaced after four hrs to find the Kongo just sitting there, it took a further 7 torpedoes to sink it, 3 impacts 1 miss and seven duds in total. This took placed at night with a flat sea and no fog.

Point being I still don't uderstand how the Merchant detected me, when none of the escorts, who are trained for, it did not.

10-28-13, 10:15 AM	#6
Bilge_Rat Silent Hunter Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: standing watch... Posts: 3,856 Downloads: 344 Uploads: 0	TMO and RFB are both pretty much the best in terms of tweaking the AI in SH4. It is really a matter of taste. The TMO AI is more challenging, but not unrealistically so. I use TMO 2.5 and have managed to get within 1500 yards of IJN DDs on the surface at night without being spotted when stopped, although I have been spotted by IJN warships at 8,000 yds at night when moving at flank speed. Underwater, if the AI detects you or knows where you are, it can be deadly. I have been nailed by DCs at 400 feet as well, although that was only once. Usually, I manage to stay undetected and escape. I just went through an attack by two IJN ships in july 43 around Truk. I was at 350 feet the whole time, silent running. They never detected me even though they went right over me a few times and dropped all their DCs far away. The Merchant AI is a mixed bag. I use RSRDC so I don't encounter them that often. I have tracked them on the surface at night getting as close as 3,000 yds without being spotted. On my current patrol, I recently sank a 2,000 tonner during the day submerged. As I recall, the range was down to 1,500-2,000 yds, again without being spotted. However, I have been spotted submerged at night at around 2,000 yds. One good tip is to limit periscope exposure to the strict minimum, just quick peeks to confirm your firing solution. I also dont use the "periscope depth" setting but choose a depth around 5 feet deeper so the scope is just breaking the surface. That is a trick I picked up from SH5 and SHO where you can choose how far to extend the scope and it impacts how far your scope can be spotted. I don't know if it is modeled in SH4, but it is safer to assume it is. __________________ Last edited by Bilge_Rat; 10-28-13 at 10:59 AM.

10-28-13, 07:55 AM	#4
Eesocks Watch Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 24 Downloads: 27 Uploads: 0	Over the last few weeks I've been using various combo's of mods. And having decided which ones to go for I started a new career out of Manilla in Dec 41'. 4 days into the patrol I got a conact, it was a lone merchant which I tracked for nearly 2 hrs to get in good position for an attack. Weather was no wind or rain and light fog and there was no moon, I positioned my sub 2000 yards off it's track stopped rigged for silent at 3ft below periscope depth and waited. When the sonar operator announced it was at a bearing of 40degrees I raised the attack periscope to take a look and could just make out a vague shadow at that moment it turned on it's searchlights, speeded up and changed course, it knew I was there! how?. I don't mind a challenge but that was ridiculous! Definately time to dumb down the AI at least on the merchants I was using TMO 2.5 OTC and some enviromental mods

10-28-13, 11:12 AM	#7
Bubblehead1980 Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Florida USA Posts: 7,115 Downloads: 605 Uploads: 44	TMO with RSRD is the best route the way I see it.Especially with various modifications for TMO, can tweak it just right.I have a couple mods I put together for TMO that change things, eliminates the unrealistic "death blows" except in rare circumstances and tweaks depth charges a bit more, if can get them to upload.stay tuned.

10-28-13, 11:48 PM	#10
merc4ulfate DILLIGAF Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: florida Posts: 2,058 Downloads: 210 Uploads: 0	"Therefore you do not take stupid chances" from an above post. Fortune Favors the Bold. I'll take a stupid chances everyday over an adversary who expects school taught tactics. Doing what is not expected will get you another days fight and most likely a sinking to boot. Making runs flank speed let em chase you and send them to the bottom with one down the throat. Drop down to 350 feet and crawl within 800 yards go all stop and rise to periscope depth and blast them out of the water with such little time that they can not even move out of the way. Out run a convoy and sit 160 meters down waiting for the lead escort to pass then rise and fire at your closest target from bow and stern tube and head off to the rear of the convoy flank speed and back to 160 meters. You have to say to yourself every day ... I am already dead. Once you get that in your head chances are your boldness and brash tactics will baffle them. Ever went all back full while being depth charged? Why not? That simple maneuver has gotten me out of so many jams. They know your heading, they hear your engines, they expect you to dive deep while moving straight a head. What they do not expect is for you to go all back full, left full rudder to line up a shot on them after they pass you missing with every depth charge they have dropped. This has me sinking either them or giving my self a chance to then drop down while they are making their turn back towards me. It has sure saved my hide on hedgehog attacks many times.

10-29-13, 06:13 PM	#12
Eesocks Watch Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 24 Downloads: 27 Uploads: 0	As it turned out I'm thankful for that merchant, if it wasn't for the 6hrs(game time) chasing it I wouldn't have sunk my 1st Battleship a few hrs later, I would have been miles away! I fired 4 torps from my stern tubes from 3000 yds before diving deep to 400 ft. One escort was within 2500 yds when I fired but never realised I was even there. And none of the escorts detected me even though it was nearly 3 hrs before they went away. I surfaced after four hrs to find the Kongo just sitting there, it took a further 7 torpedoes to sink it, 3 impacts 1 miss and seven duds in total. This took placed at night with a flat sea and no fog. Point being I still don't uderstand how the Merchant detected me, when none of the escorts, who are trained for, it did not.