Atlantic Warfare is born

[Will-Rommel]

Count me in! I may not be the most active subsim member, but financially i never minded doing my part.

Serious and passionate people can move mountains.

[Hans Witteman]

Originally Posted by Will-Rommel

Count me in! I may not be the most active subsim member, but financially i never minded doing my part.

Serious and passionate people can move mountains.

Thank for your support Will we truly need more naval Sim enthusiast just like you!
Regards the Atlantic Warfare team

[04gabriel67]

Originally Posted by Will-Rommel

Count me in! I may not be the most active subsim member, but financially i never minded doing my part.

Serious and passionate people can move mountains.

Thank you Sir !

[Xaron]

Dear Hans,

you call me arrogant and unprofessional because I just raised the question about all these features. You call me negative where I just criticize. This is a discussion board, right? So I feel free to discuss things here. Or is it just a place to praise the Lord?

I'm a German, I'm an evil Kraut and I'm Nordish by Nature. This will be a longer post and more technical - more from a programmer's point of view! I want to apologize if I'm too harsh or sarcastic. I really wish you success!! All I want to say is to keep your feets on the ground.

So let me just explain a bit more in detail why I think the way I think. For that I will just use your explanations. Look, I don't know your past, neither your future, I don't know your background, I don't know your business model, I just know this thread and I know what's probable (possible is everything).

Let me just summarize! All the following is my humble opinion and of course I can and will be wrong in some things, so please apologize again, it's just my opinion I'd like to discuss here! I don't have anything against you, Hans, or this project!

The team

You have quite some professionals! It's a really impressive list and I really mean that without any sarcasm!
So far I see:

Graphic artists (2d/3d): 5 (Gabriel, Calin, Manos, John, Hans)
Programmers: 2 (Daniel, Laurent)
Researcher/Web Stuff: 2 (Alban, Paul)

That's fine, especially as most of them are quite experienced guys! That's a huge plus!

Here comes the BUT: All these are humans, no super heros.

The work

From a artist view it seems a lot of hard work is already done. That's great for sure. I don't know if you have any low poly stuff or how high poly count your meshes are but yes, that's nice.
From a programmer's view it really looks like you have nothing at the moment. And that's what makes me scratching my head when I take a look at some of your arguments/features. So here we go:

1st - SH5 did take about 9 months with a small team

I mentioned SH5 being made in 9 moths by a bunch of people, not 100+
Times , technology, have changed.

Oh well, I love this one. I'm sure it's true, but how would that change anything? I'm pretty sure one of the main reasons for that fast completion is that they already had a huge code base to work with. Starting from scratch will delay things significantly! Sure, time has changed and it might be easier today to create a game, but there's still a lot of programming to do, all helper tools aside.

C # is not as fast as C++ for certain type of computational task and so far unity doesn't have any decent ocean system even triton ocean is not looking very good and the waves algorithm is not looking so good.

We aim at a mix of Gerstner&Tessendorf formula to have nice waves in heavy Beaufort ocean states.

That made me smile. The Triton guys worked at least one or two years on their ocean system alone but you will do better. Right. I leave it as it is here. I hope your programmers know enough about fourier transformations.

2nd - Comparison with the big boys

we have something they don’t have - a dream and passion for it. We are better than them, and time will prove this. Yes we will progress slowly because all of us are doing the work for this project in their free time. We are a team from all around the world, from different cultures but the same passion.

So you do that in free time, right? What's that Kickstarter thing for then? And you think the big boys don't have any passion? You know, a naval sim with that feature list would be a money printing machine. I wonder why the big ones haven't done that yet?

3rd - Kickstarter

Well I'm curious about this as well. You have a lot of stuff done, obviously you have the tools to create 3d models, graphics, assets and so on. Unity is free (the pro version is really NOT needed to create a game). C++ is free, Ogre3d is free. I know, you all must eat and pay bills and I really support Kickstarter projects as long as they have a goal which is likely to reach.
So I guess I will have to wait for your website to see the business model behind this and wait for the Kickstarter campaign to evolve so for now I just wonder what's this for. You do it free time? Well just continue it that way and show a running demo. THEN do your Kickstarter campaign. But yes, that's your decision.

I see one risk here: If you don't reach the Kickstarter goal, will you continue or not? Will you blame the community?

4th - Feature List

Well that's a big one. Let me just summarize:
- ships, subs and airplanes will be playable
- you can freely walk in the ships and use all stations
- RPG elements (skill tree)
- harbors, barracks (where you can walk in of course)
- multiplayer (voice chat, communication interception)
- full 3d damage system, complex sinking mechanics
- dynamic campaigns
- free walk almost everywhere, interaction with NPCs, briefings, cafes, ...

So you can walk free in ships, subs, harbors and so on. You can fly planes with realistic flight physics, full cockpit and instruments (well that alone would be a game for itself).

Summarize

Some points from me. You have a professional team, no doubts. You have already a lot of assets, that's good.
From my point of view you really need more programmers. For me that's the bottle neck, the weak point for now as I see it. Personally I work in huge projects as a C++ programmer for 10 years now. And I still learn new things and I'm not failure proof. I often see the 80/20 is just true. I just see how often small things can block something for quite some time. You want so much, that's just incredible. It's a tough job for 2-3 years development time. Time passes by really, really fast...

Finally, go for it! I know these feelings, how great it is to start something like this. All the passion, the fascination, the motivation. Phew! Keep that momentum and go for it. I will support you! I want you to succeed, but please keep it realistic.

[tonibamestre]

Count me in aswell with my full support guys, I also want the ultimate classic aeronaval Sim here on my desk.
I was wondering if could be a good idea to develop this Sim like a full base itself with all the ítems implemented. The goal would be to have a future -Dynamic Shipyard - able to add new platforms from time to time,just like in real life. This way,if ships+planes have to be done further on its more simple,and more forces can be implemented from a wide range of countries.
Can you imagine a VIRTUAL SHIPYARD going on,where you can see the building progress of a new battleship or even a CV?

Cheers.

[Hans Witteman]

you call me arrogant and unprofessional because I just raised the question about all these features. You call me negative where I just criticize. This is a discussion board, right? So I feel free to discuss things here. Or is it just a place to praise the Lord?

Well the comment after Jim positive feedback was pretty sarcastic so that why i call you arrogant and it was not a positive criticism but sarcasm.
Yes it is a discussion board and we appreciate positive dialogs but when people came in and use sarcasm it is my duty to defend my team integrity since you are mocking all the people involved in this project.

I'm a German, I'm an evil Kraut and I'm Nordish by Nature. This will be a longer post and more technical - more from a programmer's point of view! I want to apologize if I'm too harsh or sarcastic. I really wish you success!! All I want to say is to keep your feets on the ground.

I was also born a dirty Kraut but been adopted by friends of my biological parents in Canada so i am as Nordish as you are and we accept your apologies and prefer to talk with the gentleman instead since it is way more positive and constructive.

Let me just summarize! All the following is my humble opinion and of course I can and will be wrong in some things, so please apologize again, it's just my opinion I'd like to discuss here! I don't have anything against you, Hans, or this project!

The Sim and specially the Naval Sim community is already so small that we must be united instead of empty dialogs that lead no where.

The team

You have quite some professionals! It's a really impressive list and I really mean that without any sarcasm!
So far I see:

Graphic artists (2d/3d): 5 (Gabriel, Calin, Manos, John, Hans)
Programmers: 2 (Daniel, Laurent)
Researcher/Web Stuff: 2 (Alban, Paul)

That's fine, especially as most of them are quite experienced guys! That's a huge plus!

Here comes the BUT: All these are humans, no super heros.

No one a super heroes but you will have a hard time finding team mates as dedicated and experience then the one reunited for ATWAR.

The work

From a artist view it seems a lot of hard work is already done. That's great for sure. I don't know if you have any low poly stuff or how high poly count your meshes are but yes, that's nice.
From a programmer's view it really looks like you have nothing at the moment. And that's what makes me scratching my head when I take a look at some of your arguments/features. So here we go:

Any studio can tell you that the most expansive part of any triple AAA title is the art assets and the time required to do it, that what is eating most of the budget for any serious game. We all work our models in high resolution to be able to use them in both cinematic&promotional material and then we reduce them to manageable mid to low res for real time rendering and everything work perfectly. Gabriel use the same technique as me and i think SH3,SH4,SH5, speak for themselves.

As a programer i just consider myself as junior since i start 2 years ago but i rely on Laurent who is a senior programer with 14 years of experience for the more complex math behind certain game mechanics.
Daniel is also intermediate programer and have work on lod and terrain so i don't think we have any weakness in the programing departement add to this that another senior programer that have work on 8 triple AAA title is currently in dialog with me.

1st - SH5 did take about 9 months with a small team



Oh well, I love this one. I'm sure it's true, but how would that change anything? I'm pretty sure one of the main reasons for that fast completion is that they already had a huge code base to work with. Starting from scratch will delay things significantly! Sure, time has changed and it might be easier today to create a game, but there's still a lot of programming to do, all helper tools aside.

I will let Gabriel answer this one since i was not involved in the SH series.



That made me smile. The Triton guys worked at least one or two years on their ocean system alone but you will do better. Right. I leave it as it is here. I hope your programmers know enough about fourier transformations.

There is already plenty of available open source code where the bulk of the work is done for real time ocean and Triton was develop years ago for the ship simulator game before the avalanche of already available algorithm for real time ocean. We only need to tweak it to behave correctly for our buoyancy model and we will make our own custom shaders for it. Unity like i mention also have a community project that already look 10 time better then triton but is still work in progress and like i said before we are evaluating at the moment if Unity would be capable to handle our complete game. Laurent have no problem with FFT transformation.

2nd - Comparison with the big boys



So you do that in free time, right? What's that Kickstarter thing for then? And you think the big boys don't have any passion? You know, a naval sim with that feature list would be a money printing machine. I wonder why the big ones haven't done that yet?

Any great game that i have play in my long gaming past was done by a small team with a passion not the other way around as a quick example the Witcher, no RPG done by the big boys even came close to this level of perfection but i know now that CDproject are consider big boys but they were not when they were working on the first Witcher!

This one is obvious i am surprise you didn't figure it out yet, big studios go with the trend and the trend said Sim are a dead end because most people find them to hard to learn and many don't have enough time to spend in a game. Second Sim programing and art assets are 10 time more complicated to achieve in a reasonable time schedule than a dumb down RPG. I can talk about this one since i was working for 8 month on a survival horror RPG and it was much more easy to program than a Sim.

3rd - Kickstarter

Well I'm curious about this as well. You have a lot of stuff done, obviously you have the tools to create 3d models, graphics, assets and so on. Unity is free (the pro version is really NOT needed to create a game). C++ is free, Ogre3d is free. I know, you all must eat and pay bills and I really support Kickstarter projects as long as they have a goal which is likely to reach.
So I guess I will have to wait for your website to see the business model behind this and wait for the Kickstarter campaign to evolve so for now I just wonder what's this for. You do it free time? Well just continue it that way and show a running demo. THEN do your Kickstarter campaign. But yes, that's your decision.

Of course since we have not finish yet to set the detail for the business deployment stategy we cannot release sensitive information about this.

Take the example of Star citizen we can do something similar and just use kickstarter as further push ahead but mainly Star citizen funding came from community backers who bought various package on their own site.
All they did was good promotional videos and reach most gaming related site.

I see one risk here: If you don't reach the Kickstarter goal, will you continue or not? Will you blame the community?

Life is all about risk but calculated risk have more chance of success and of course we wont blame the community but we will clearly hear that there is not enough support for such a project and will probably try a different approach like the one i was attempted before i came back to the naval Sim project. My goal was to put aside my passion for Sim to make a RPG since the trend and perspective of success was much higher for this genre then if the project would have yield reasonable success i would have re invest the profit to make the Naval Sim but this was going to be a very long process to attain the same goal with all the risk of failure.

4th - Feature List

Well that's a big one. Let me just summarize:
- ships, subs and airplanes will be playable
- you can freely walk in the ships and use all stations
- RPG elements (skill tree)
- harbors, barracks (where you can walk in of course)
- multiplayer (voice chat, communication interception)
- full 3d damage system, complex sinking mechanics
- dynamic campaigns
- free walk almost everywhere, interaction with NPCs, briefings, cafes, ...

So you can walk free in ships, subs, harbors and so on. You can fly planes with realistic flight physics, full cockpit and instruments (well that alone would be a game for itself).

We don't see any problem with these game mechanics and there is nothing far fetch in implementing them and the way we intend to release the game will alleviate the bulk of the work.

And if we see that Unity is capable to handle our game then most of what you mention in that list is rather easy to do in unity since i already have most of them done for the game prototype and it is working flawlessly.

Like i have said before in only 2 years of recent technology advance thing have drastically change in the gaming industry, take example of Unity playmaker many studio that have problem finding good programers are now relying on playmaker to make complex programing behaviors and just read some threads about it and you will see what professional studios are saying about it. Another one is Rain one Ai : http://rivaltheory.com/tag/rainone/, i already have experience working with it and it is the best solution around to make complex AI behaviors and you can upgrade the behaviors nodes to include customs one you script. And there a whole bunch of other great stuff already done that save month of coding so we don't intend to be masochistic and re inventing the wheel when solutions are already available at a reasonable cost.

John is already beta testing FlightFS a realistic flight model for unity with cockpit instruments and the module is a breeze to setup and by just adding your airfoils wing shape the model adapt to represent a very close representation of the flight dynamic of that particular plane.



Summarize

Some points from me. You have a professional team, no doubts. You have already a lot of assets, that's good.
From my point of view you really need more programmers. For me that's the bottle neck, the weak point for now as I see it. Personally I work in huge projects as a C++ programmer for 10 years now. And I still learn new things and I'm not failure proof. I often see the 80/20 is just true. I just see how often small things can block something for quite some time. You want so much, that's just incredible. It's a tough job for 2-3 years development time. Time passes by really, really fast...

I agree we need more programers but specialize one and i already found a very good solution for this on a Russian freelancer site, we have to give the Russian this in the programing department nothing come close to them in term of coding speed and elegant solutions and pricing.
They are fast and cost half the price compared to north America programers fee's.

So in specific modules of the game various mechanics we will simply use freelancers to speed up our workflow and many triple AAA studios are using the exact same solution to cut the cost. Just Google it and you will be very surprised!

Finally, go for it! I know these feelings, how great it is to start something like this. All the passion, the fascination, the motivation. Phew! Keep that momentum and go for it. I will support you! I want you to succeed, but please keep it realistic.

Of course we will go for it and we are not starting this whole project from scratch, everything was carefully analyze long before we post the first thread about it.

Again like i said once our game deployment strategy will be known everybody will understand that our goal is very realistic so judging us by the sum of features and saying it is not realistic is premature without knowing first our deployment strategy.

And to finish i am glad that you left your sarcasm behind to introduce a more intelligent and constructive dialog that help the project instead of sinking it.

And since you seem to have excellent coding skills maybe we never know if you might not be tempted to join the ATWAR project since the whole gaming community know very well that mobile is not the future of gaming and specially not Simulation just Google it!

Regards the Atlantic Warfare team

[Hans Witteman]

Originally Posted by tonibamestre

Count me in aswell with my full support guys, I also want the ultimate classic aeronaval Sim here on my desk.
I was wondering if could be a good idea to develop this Sim like a full base itself with all the ítems implemented. The goal would be to have a future -Dynamic Shipyard - able to add new platforms from time to time,just like in real life. This way,if ships+planes have to be done further on its more simple,and more forces can be implemented from a wide range of countries.
Can you imagine a VIRTUAL SHIPYARD going on,where you can see the building progress of a new battleship or even a CV?

Cheers.

Hi Toni,

Well all this sound very interesting but for the moment we will have to concentrate on the main game features but we will listen and take all good ideas from supporters and see what possible to implement at a later stage within a reasonable time schedule.

But a dynamic campaign made these kind of extra possible but first we will build a solid base for the main gameplay and then we will analyze and see what we can add to further polish the Sim.

Regards the Atlantic Warfare team

[04gabriel67]

Hello Xaron!.

Well, I want to thank you for your posts. If there was nobody to raise some doubts about this project, then I start to doubt about it
and about myself.

I have a good friend from Germany who actually helped me on SH3 (and it's on credits there ). I know very well his German way of being.
I am Latin as blood, let's say more temperamental. We have faith and we fight for our believes. Challenging and raising the bar, pushing it above the strict
realism, prove to be more creative. You will be surprised to see that what
you are told over there about us is far from reality.

We are with feet on ground, thank you so much for being worried for us. We are aware about bottle necks also, and each possible problem will be solved when it should be.

I am honored you take time to analyze few things I mentioned on thread but I am sorry, for the moment I could not say more. I stand on what I say; maybe the time to explain and detail a lot will come. In this moment it's not ethical to do it.

As I told you before, if the kickstarter goal will not be reach, there will be no project. For the moment. It will be our fault not advertising enough our intention, our fault not reaching and convincing enough people. We are part of this community and as long there are a lot of people here who support us, there will be nothing and nobody to blame here.

I say again, there will be this project as scheduled if there will be enough supporters. And it will have success. If there will be not enough, we won't give up, it will be an undesired delay only.

Neither do I know nothing about your past or present, I just suppose you are also into this small world of ship simulators. You say you work in huge projects for 10 years now...criticism was all you could offer as support?

Well, at least for me it was all I need I have more reasons now to support Hans and this project in which I believe.

Best regards


Gabriel

[makman94]

they reject it before even have seen anything about it yet!

thats really ,lets call it,... amazing

well , i have a question for the community and i expect an honest answer(not to me but to yourselfs) from everybody here (it is my vision of things),

some of us are many years around this forum and most of the old members can confirm my following words:

there was never real moders involved to sh3 and sh4. tweaks to images or adding 1000 ships - planes or tweaking sensors or rewritting campaign files isn't 'moding' . you can call it enhancement but not ...moding. nothing of the aboves is changing (i mean drastically) the gameplay of the game,the game remains the same . this doesn't mean that all of us ,the 'enhancers' didn't 'offer' to this game,on the contrary, but did we change it ,the answer is a big no.
ONLY ,pay attention to this, the last two years something really important made for sh3 and that was H.sie's and Stiebler's patches. yes,this can be called 'Moding' and this kind of moding is what sh3 really needed from day one. i am reading from time to time about the 'bugs' in sh3 and all that i have to say about this is that sh3 has very few (and not important bugs and most of them were solvable) after its v1.4 patch. (enhancements by 'enhancers' is just a matter of time to see the light of day).

the only game of series that is being modded from the start is sh5 by MAINLY only ONE person (TDW aka Racerboy). can you see the miracles that this man has made for this title and he is just one person!

i am trying to say that if you have some real good programmers in your team you can do miracles ! sure ,TDW , is working on an existed code (thats for you Xaron) but this doesn't mean that you can't see how far he went and how far he can go with it ! personally , i think that there are no limits for TDW...imagine him working at a code as he really would like it to be written.

anyway , my question to all of you is:
lets suppouse that you would have to pick the best from our community to be in a project like ATWAR at the 3d designing part. let aside your 'friendships' - egoism here, and name them !
i vote with a big yes to Hans Witteman and now Gabriel (who joined this effort). i would also vote to Tomi99 and Flakmonkey and i have no doupt that everybody will agree with me.
do you have anyone better than the above persons to suggest and trust them to the 3d designing part of the ATWAR ? becuase , i am wodering , who do you exept to start a so risky and so demanding project if not the best of subsim ?

unfortunally , we have no programmers in subsim in order to suggest-vote to them . i would say TDW or Skwasjer but i don't know(my knowledge on programming is...zero) if they are able or have the will for such an effort.

seriously guys, i don't know any better persons to start such a project. do you ?
yes, real talended programmers are really needed to ATWAR team and maybe kickstarter proove that it will be possible to catch the attention. only time will tell . for many of you ,the list may seems extra unrealistic but all that is needed is a good base engine that will be able to handle subs-ships-planes. the SH3 Warship Mod didn't convinced you yet that there are very few missing from sh3 code in order to enjoy surface warfare ? sh2 with destroyer command isn't an old proof that can be done?
as for the cocpit planes and user handling the plane , i also find it very extreme but yet not impossible after seen that almost a full pack for it is allready ready for unity engine. it is secondary in my wish list and personally i wouldn't mind if turned out to be rejected but ,if a good base engine is managed to be build, it will be just a matter of time for airplane cocpit to be added in the sim.

yes , there were many projects failed (i wouldn't say that 'fail' is the right word) at past . for me, the best effort made was the ''Danger From The Deep'' and still till today i was 'waited' somehow this project to be continued.still till today , i wouldn't say that ''Danger From The Deep'' failed.


anyway , i am trying to say that becuase of the past 'fails' ,we must stop ...trying ? becuase something failed ,means that everything will ...fail from now on?
now, look around in these forums and make your 'dream' team....would you leave out Hans or Gabriel from this team ?
as for programmers ...spread the news...the more we have the better i think.

ps: thats my personal point of view and maybe i said things that will 'annoy' some of you . it is just my sincere thoughts and thats only posted for sharing them with all of you. you can disagree-discuss with me if you feel that i was unfair but please contact me via pm as for keeping ATWAR thread clear from such posts

[tonibamestre]

Getting back to work........ any chance to include Royal Navy subs on the initial reléase?


http://uboat.net/allies/ships/rn_subs.htm


Thanks and please.......keep speed all ahead flank !

[Hans Witteman]

Originally Posted by tonibamestre

Getting back to work........ any chance to include Royal Navy subs on the initial reléase?


http://uboat.net/allies/ships/rn_subs.htm


Thanks and please.......keep speed all ahead flank !

Hi Toni,

First we will concentrate on pinning down the surface ships, subs and planes controls mechanics correctly.

Once we have one sub correctly setup it will not be very hard to add more subs later on but don't expect British subs to appear in initial first release.

We are currently looking at a very new and innovative way to release the Sim that will make adding new content a dynamic experience for the player, more will be reveal once the website is up.

Also i already notice that reference material is pretty hard to find specially for ww2 British sub interiors, if a am correct the only existing one is the HMS Alliance.

Regards the Atlantic Warfare team

[Xaron]

Thanks guys for the honest answers! I really appreciate it!

@Hans:

And since you seem to have excellent coding skills maybe we never know if you might not be tempted to join the ATWAR project since the whole gaming community know very well that mobile is not the future of gaming and specially not Simulation just Google it!

Thanks for the offer but for the moment I have more than a sh1tload of work with my own projects. Well I agree that mobile gaming is not for hardcore sims, but I can imagine to use tablets as enhancements to a computer simulation or just to check things on the way.

@04gabriel67:

Neither do I know nothing about your past or present, I just suppose you are also into this small world of ship simulators. You say you work in huge projects for 10 years now...criticism was all you could offer as support?

Yes. Because that's just my experience. The bigger the project the more likely it is to fail. And, more team members don't necessarily increase the success of a project. I'm a simulation fan but I don't work in that business. My main work is as a software engineer (C++ all the day) for a medical device company including a lot of 3d rendering stuff.

As I told you before, if the kickstarter goal will not be reach, there will be no project.

That's a pity! I'm really curious about your Kickstarter goal and look forward to more stuff from you but again, is Kickstarter really necessary? I can only assume that it might be hard to reach anything beyond a $10,000 goal for such a niche product.

@makman94:

anyway , i am trying to say that becuase of the past 'fails' ,we must stop ...trying ? becuase something failed ,means that everything will ...fail from now on?

A simple answer: Yes. A longer answer: There is no correlation between the number of failed projects and the success. When you failed 10 times it doesn't mean you'll succeed the 11th. Success is a function of knowledge, experience and realistic goals and resources. It's that easy. I don't say you must stop trying. But you must stop trying to bloat the feature list. Make it modular, do milestones. Don't trap into details. I can remember in countless hours of just optimizing the look of particles. Make it just work, do the fine tuning at the end.

[raymond6751]

You never fail until you quit!!
Henry Ford

We gamers/simmers should be happy and welcoming every new naval game project. It does nobody any good to start ripping and tearing instead of encouraging those with the skill and willingness to give us a new sim.

Discussion thread does not automatically imply two sides of an argument. This is our opportunity to put forward ideas and suggestions of things we would like to see in their game.

The crew building this project are serious. Let's stand behind them!

[Xaron]

Originally Posted by raymond6751

You never fail until you quit!!

Well you nailed it. The problem lies in the second part of the sentence "until you quit!!".

We gamers/simmers should be happy and welcoming every new naval game project. It does nobody any good to start ripping and tearing instead of encouraging those with the skill and willingness to give us a new sim.

Agreed!

Discussion thread does not automatically imply two sides of an argument.

Oh does it not? Well I get your point. Must be my almost sceptical nature which just let me answer these posts where I just should shut the heck up. Sorry guys! Wasted a few hours to make some nice water transition caustics effect. D'oh! Works now!

[DeMeza]

This game sounds like a fantastic project, and I hope you guys make it!

Just a quick question - will there be Hilfskreuzers like Komoran or Atlantis? Pretty please!