Syria conflict: 'Chemical attacks kill hundreds'

[Jimbuna]

Mr Kerry and Mr Lavrov said if Syria failed to comply, then a UN resolution would be sought under Chapter VII of the UN charter, which allows for the use of force.

Vitally important.

[soopaman2]

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

Vitally important.

Not being cynical, but Russia and the USA agreeing to a resolution is just silly, just look at N korea, and how Russia supports them, just to tweak Americas nipples.

I do not trust Russia, not a cold war thing, just how them and China love to muddle up the UN processes because they make money from pure despots. N Korea can threaten us with nukes, as its mommy (Russia) and daddy (China) protects it, and gives it legitimacy. (you have any idea how many nukes we have? for real, why poke at us unless you got strong allies, willing to die for you?)

Where did Syria get the weapons from? I would love to see that paper trail.

I have a sneaking suspicion Russia is playing both sides of the fence here, trying to stop an outright invasion by us, but acting like it cares to keep its own complicity in selling them the chems secret.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

Vitally important.

Overestimated. I already know right now how the Russians will agree to pick the chapter'S points to their liking - and always exclduing the use of force. The cvhapter allows sanctions, diplomatic things and the like, it also include the use of military force - optionally. The Russians will never agree to that part of it.

The mandatory threat of using military means if Syria does not comply, that France and the US have sought for, is off the table. And that is what the Russians wanted.

The whole thing of cleaning Syria'S chemical wepaons is something that is extremely unrealistic anyway, me thinks. It is assumed that even the Russians themselves help Assad to move them around. Destroying these wepaons or collecting them and getting them out - under fire, with the civil war raging? With Russia protecting a victorious Assad, and the rebels dominated by radicals who do not want to give up any chemical weapons they conquer?

We dreamed a little bit the past days. But lets come back to our senses. The weapons are there to stay, and Obama is now free to official do ignore his own threats and do nothing about the "incident".

The facts of the outcome i agree with: no military intervention. Just the way they have danced on eggs to get there, and have placed those eggs themselves before, is what makes me laughing.

[Mittelwaechter]

Putin has vital interest to keep Syria under his control. He wants to prevent the Arabian pipeline to Europe, because he has to sell his own oil and gas to Europe - it's essential for the Russian survival.
So he gave Assad the following choice: do what I expect you to do - give up your selfdefense (chemical weapons) and slip under my protection - or face the western attack and get killed. Asad had no choice but to accept Putins protection. Putin is in control over Syria and the Arabians will not build their pipeline.

[Skybird]

"get killed?"

Obama several times said that the strikes will be minimal, small, limited - sending every signal possible that they would not do much harm at all.

Make love in war!

While Obama does one thing, his shadow does the opposite thing at the same time. Must be some Lucky Luke thing - just not with drawing colts but leaving them stuck.

[soopaman2]

If Putin could stop this, why not let him?

Because the American companies who drill oil, make rifles or tanks will not allow it.

We must fight to live. Not like we make anything anymore, except war and strife.

Sure Putin is greedy, but America is not?



At least Putin measures sucess in Rubles and not tombstones in Arlington National Cemetary like we do.

Bring back the draft, zero exemptions. I would go if called, would Joe Richy Riches son go? or Don Senators son go?

(edit Even Prince Harry had the balls to go fight, what senators son went, not on a command ship, or in a faraway outpost?)

[Mittelwaechter]

Get killed! Sure!

Starting to bomb (= helping the aggressors), they wouldn't stop until Assad is history.
They'd find their reasons. Remember Gaddafi?

By the way, he gave his ok to hand out his chemical weapons to international control.

[Tchocky]

I'd like to point out again that none of the military options included boots on the ground.

Bringing back the draft would do nothing.

GT....facts.....why bother.

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Overestimated. I already know right now how the Russians will agree to pick the chapter'S points to their liking - and always exclduing the use of force. The cvhapter allows sanctions, diplomatic things and the like, it also include the use of military force - optionally. The Russians will never agree to that part of it.

The mandatory threat of using military means if Syria does not comply, that France and the US have sought for, is off the table. And that is what the Russians wanted.

The whole thing of cleaning Syria'S chemical wepaons is something that is extremely unrealistic anyway, me thinks. It is assumed that even the Russians themselves help Assad to move them around. Destroying these wepaons or collecting them and getting them out - under fire, with the civil war raging? With Russia protecting a victorious Assad, and the rebels dominated by radicals who do not want to give up any chemical weapons they conquer?

We dreamed a little bit the past days. But lets come back to our senses. The weapons are there to stay, and Obama is now free to official do ignore his own threats and do nothing about the "incident".

The facts of the outcome i agree with: no military intervention. Just the way they have danced on eggs to get there, and have placed those eggs themselves before, is what makes me laughing.

Well my take on it is that Russia may well be the ones painting themselves into a corner now.

With Chapter VII in the equation an eventual military strike may be legitimized.

Of course, only time will tell.

[Tchocky]

Russia now has to step up and play properly. Everyone's watching. Putin wants to be a strong ally for countries wary of the US - hence he gets involved to avoid military strikes on an ally that would embarrass both Russians and Russian hardware.

[soopaman2]

Originally Posted by Tchocky

Russia now has to step up and play properly. Everyone's watching. Putin wants to be a strong ally for countries wary of the US - hence he gets involved to avoid military strikes on an ally that would embarrass both Russians and Russian hardware.

Or he could be shielding a pal of his, from a sound thrashing at US hands.

Which means when we start to divvy up the spoils Putin gets none, that is what this is about.

Either way Assad is done, who gets to pillage and rape the country is at odds.

And you accuse me of "facts, GT" ?

Your so smart, you missed the obvious?

$$$

Is what this is about, not like we care about some crackpot despot gassing his own, we ignored African holocausts for years,...But Syria is close to Israel.

Want to call me stupid again?

Idjit, GT facts, how about look deeper, and prove me wrong, rather than fling nonsense smarmy crap at me.

GT facts, there it is!

Next insult please Tchocky?

Rhymes with cocky. Fitting.

(my name rhymes with poopaman!)

Name me one invasion that was sucessful with no boots on ground, or death?

[Tchocky]

Originally Posted by soopaman2

Or he could be shielding a pal of his, from a sound thrashing at US hands.

Which is along the lines of what I was saying - Putin wants to be seen as a strong ally.

Either way Assad is done, who gets to pillage and rape the country is at odds.

Hardly. Conventional warfare has given Assad the edge recently, hence the whole buzz about his use of chem weapons not making sense from a strategic standpoint. Nothing says Assad is done. None of the military options presented so far involved regime change so there's no truth in saying Assad is "done"

And you accuse me of "facts, GT" ?

I'm repeatedly pointing out factual errors in your conception of what is going on. The objections that you have are valid, but they're not objections to what's actually happening.

Your so smart, you missed the obvious?

$$$

Is what this is about, not like we care about some crackpot despot gassing his own, we ignored African holocausts for years,...But Syria is close to Israel.

You're going to have to make yourself a lot clearer. Typing dollar signs and mentioning where Syria is does not add up to a cogent argument.

This is about money? Whose money? How is Israel involved apart from the threat of an unstable chemical war on its border?

And honestly, none of what I think you're saying makes any sense because the US has been dragging its heels and very reluctant to get involved for two years now. So we have to ask - what changed?

Did Israel move closer to Syria in August and start the war drums beating?

Want to call me stupid again?

I didn't call you stupid. I pointed out that the grounds of your objections don't make any sense in this context.

Idjit, GT facts, how about look deeper, and prove me wrong, rather than fling nonsense smarmy crap at me.

Take another look at your $$/Israel bit and then talk to me about nonsense. It's hard to prove you wrong when you don't provide an argument.

Name me one invasion that was sucessful with no boots on ground, or death?

Should I bother saying it? An invasion by definition involves boots on the ground. Nobody is talking about an invasion in Syria. This is just as true as it was the first time myself and others have brought this up.

Seriously. Not that difficult.

[soopaman2]

Tchocky, No bit.

If war did not make money then it would not be done.

I am not doing a bit, I should have expressed it better, and without clowning you, I kinda felt you were clowning me, so I hit back, I see your point, but try to understand money makes the world go around, not noble intentions, despite how it is sold to the common "rube"

No one commits to war for fun or noble reasons, it is always money, I'll spare you the money signs...

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Tchocky

Russia now has to step up and play properly. Everyone's watching. Putin wants to be a strong ally for countries wary of the US - hence he gets involved to avoid military strikes on an ally that would embarrass both Russians and Russian hardware.

Good point...simply put.

[Platapus]

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

Well my take on it is that Russia may well be the ones painting themselves into a corner now.

With Chapter VII in the equation an eventual military strike may be legitimized.

Of course, only time will tell.

All they have to do is veto it. The veto of the P5 can not be appealed nor does the vetoing country have to justify their veto.

One more reason I don't like the P5 veto rule. But let's be honest, the original nuclear powers would never have agreed to the UN unless they could veto the UNSC.