AI generated shipping question for RSRDC

[CapnScurvy]

Without trying to circumvent Lurker's fine work (I thought he's had a long standing request of not using his mods incorporated into other mods) yet, I've not really found much on his "Permission" request. In mods past, I've had to change some of his files to either make them more accurate, or correct a problem with them when making some of my mods "compatible" with his (and he knew I did). He's also taken the liberty to do the same with mine (I still find some of my SCAF Recognition Manual images in his RSRDC work). So, explaining how a player could increase merchant traffic in RSRDC is purely instructional in nature, and not intended to disrespect his request of permission. Frankly, I've looked all through his RSRDC file documentation and have found only this:

Absolutely nothing found within the RSRDC may be used for any commercial product of any size, shape or form.

Below is a comparison of the two Random Group entries of the "42a_Jap_Merchants.mis" file:



You'll notice there is no difference in the two 1st [Mission] paragraphs, except for the Year and Month entries. The RSRDC file is from the "RSRDC_V5xx_Patch1" mod (which is intended to overwrite any RSRDC version). The Patch is intended to correct the dates for the game allowing for some overlap in mission availability......DON"T MESS WITH THE DATES IN RSRDC. Nor, should you open the file in the games Mission Editor to make corrections to RSRDC's work. It apparently will change the dates Lurker so diligently worked on.....making them as the stock game has them. This is why Lurker warns about not making changes using the ME.....use Notepad to open, and save your changes to his files.

The second paragraph is the one I'll explain....the [RndGroup 1]

Be assured, these two files are referring to two completly different merchant routes. So, please realize this is like comparing apples to oranges. The fact is, RSRDC doesn't have a single merchant route that's comparable to the stock game....their all different in where they start, when they start, what ships are used, what speeds they travel etc. What's important to see is the general differences between them and what some of the specific entries mean.


GroupName=xx_xx_xxx
The name of the mission

Category=0
????

CommandEntry=0
Not sure what either of these two parameters do.

Long=xxxxx.xxxx
Lat=xxxxx.xxxx
Where the mission starts on the map

Height=0.000000
Unit's will start on the surface when at 0.000000

DelayMin=60
Minimum time taken between last check of spawning attempt, in seconds. This entry is usually kept at 60 seconds.

DelayMinInterv=xxxxxx
This is the maximum interval of time between the last check of a spawning attempt (in seconds), until the next chance is made. Notice RSRDC has this number doubled over the stock entry. For some of RSRDC's routes, this factor is many times the average stock period of time.

SpawnProbability=xx
The precentage of time's you'll actually get a spawn of the mission route when an attempt is allowed, after the "DelayMinInterv" period of time has passed. On average, RSRDC has this precentage set to below 50%.....Stock has it mostly over 50%. As in the two examples, RSRDC has 40% of the time you'll get a spawn....Stock has it at 70%.

RandStart Radius=0.000000
How far away from the Long=, Lat= map position the mission will randomly spawn, within a given radius.

ReportPosMin=xxxx
This is the minimum amount of time, in seconds, it takes to make a "Contact Report" on the mission route, after it's sucessfully been spawned.

ReportPosProbability=xx
The precentage chance of having a "Contact Report" made once a spawn is sucessful. RSRDC has this setting usually lower than 10%. Stock always has this set to 50% of the time.

The rest of the entries are somewhat self explainatory.

The 3rd paragraph [RndGroup 1.RndUnit1] is explained from a passage I copied from Peabody:

[RndGroup 1.RndUnit 1]
this is the first ship in the group

Type=102
Obviously the type of ship (102=Cargo). Found in the Roster/Names.cfg file.

Origin=Japan
Country from the Roster

Side=0
Side is taken from the DefSide.cfg in the Roster

CargoExt=1
External cargo from a list in the mission editor.
List:
0=Ext Oil
1=Fuel
2=Oil
3=Ammo Containers
4=Ammo Crates
5=Aircraft
6=Tanks
7=Trucks
8=TrapContainer
9=American Tanks
10=American Trucks
11=Ext fuel
12=Ammo
13=Engine Oil
14=Engine Fuel

CargoInt=0
Internal Cargo from a list:
List:
0=Freight
1=Ammunition
2=Engine Fuel

CfgDate=19420301
Date the ship is available

No=1
How many of this unit are added to the convoy/task force. You can add one at a time and this will be one, or in mission editor you can add 5 all at once and in the mission editor you will see an entry "American: 5XGeneric cargo 100%. So if you edit that by hand you can change 1 to 5 and it will add 5 of that type of ship to the mission. (I have not tested this with Notepad, but it does work with the mission editor). It the person that wrote the mission added the ships to a random group one at a time it will always be 1. That is the way I do it, so you can put in different settings for each ship.

Escort=false
If you add or change DDs, you should change this to True so the DDs will not travel in the columns but will actually act like Escorts and travel randomly out side the group. Normally for cargo ships this will always be false. Usually the only time you change it is for an escort ship such as a Destroyer.

SpawnProbability=100
The chance that this specific ship will actually be added to the group. You need to be a little careful here, if you add all ships at 70% but the Escort destroyers are set to 100% you may have all DDs and NO ships in the convoy. Or you may end up with seven DDs escorting 1 ship. By setting some ships at 100% and Generic, and others at 70% you can vary the convoy so it isn't the same every time you see it. I always make sure I have at least a few set to 100% so it isn't an empty convoy. (Don't confuse this with the SpawnProbability in the RndGroup1 entry. That one sets the probably that the entire group will spawn. The entry here determines if this ship is in that group or not.)

CrewRating=1
Just like the cargo it is a list of choices from the mission editor.
List:
0=Poor
1=Novice
2=Competent
3=Veteran
4=Elite

A good choice to make them Novice at the start of the war and increase to Elite as they get better at their task, and zig zagging and evading you.

========

It goes without saying, there are a lot of individual mission routes. If you just concentrate on the various year Merchant and Tankers .mis files....you'll be at it for quite a while. As I said, I'm working on a comprehensive change to the RSRDC merchant files now, with the plan on relaesing a new mod to overlay RSRDC v550.

[Armistead]

Capn,

Always wondered exactly what all crew ratings effect. Long ago I was told they only effect the amount of sensors used. Anyway, l noticed long ago almost all the merchant and capital ships used the competent rating, so I beefed them up, many vets and elite. It seemed clear they reacted different at elite, zigged better, evasion, repaired faster, etc. Can you say for fact what all ratings effect beside sensors....seems they effect about everything overall.

You know best about what you can do with his mod. I once asked about releasing changes to RSRD and several stepped up for him saying I shouldn't release anything that changed his existing work or included it, so I dropped it, except for myself. However, I don't see a problem making mods that simply add to his work, new mis files, etc.

[JoeCorrado]

Wow Cap'n THANK YOU so much for taking the time to explain how to tweak the mis files. I will take what you have shown here and give it a try. Your step by step explanation makes the mystery that seemed daunting and males it into a task that seems much more realistic for a novice like myself to attempt.

My very sincere thanks!

[Rockin Robbins]

The way I see it, when you load up a mod it changes previously loaded mods. RSRD does overwrite TMO gameplay options, for instance. It is only reasonable that therefore it is okay to write mods that overwrite RSRD parameters too.

It is not okay to release them as "RSRD Reworked!" or in any way to imply that you've somehow taken over RSRD. It IS okay to release "Restore Duci's Evil Airplanes to RSRD" mod. It can be loaded on top of RSRD if you want that change, but it does not change RSRD itself. If you unload "Restore Duci's Evil Airplanes" you restore RSRD to Lurker's intention, just as if you uninstall RSRD you restore Duci's original intentions for TMO. I thought evil airplanes were Duci's crowning achievement. Lurker hated them so he tromped all over them.

The agreement was that Duci would work on gameplay and Lurker would do campaign. But that is not what happened and RSRD morphed into a supermod knowing no boundaries, not supplementing TMO but redefining its gameplay as well. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

Just do it with respect for the original mod makers and in a way that leaves their products unmodified if people are perfectly happy with them unmodified.

We're providing additional choices, not eliminating old ones.

[CapnScurvy]

Yes I think "choices" are good for everybody. I'll admit, when I started looking through a couple of RSRDC's early war merchant/tankers campaign files I found a couple of errors in the Group numbering, and waypoint numbering sequence. It was a couple of days ago (and I tried to find it quickly today....but couldn't), but as I was scrolling down through one of the Merchant files, I found the RandomGroup number to be different than what the [Mission] number was. Meaning the RndGroup information wasn't going to be attached to the [Mission] it should have been. I also found the first "Waypoint" entry of another Group was numbered #2, not #1.....there were two #2 Waypoints listed. I'm not sure about the outcome, but when a Group's Waypoint doesn't start with the first waypoint......I'm thinking the group won't go anywhere, because it doesn't know where to start.

Having the SpawnProbability set to 15% or so.....or having the DelayMinInterv set so long in duration that the game won't look for mission spawning possibilities within a "blue moon", seems too unplayable to me. I said before, if some missions are rarely spawned, yet others are much more likely to be allowed to run their course......a predicitable pattern will emerge. You'll become too familiar with the few routes that are made available, while feeling you're the only ship in the sea while waiting on the others to spawn (if they ever will).

Correcting errors, tweaking percentages, and lowering elapsed time intervals should make for better game play for us all. More mission routes being run will create more variety. I'm guessing that's exactly what Lurker would have wanted too.

+1 on no permission needed to create a mod to mod other mods

any mod can be made to change other mods without permission but you just need to be sure to point out its a mod to alter the other mod and not imply its in any way endorsed by the other modder simply because they failed to object to it.

if its your mod and you say that then its in no way infringing on anything, you are just using another mod as a base for your mod to function so its not like you claim any credit for the work of the other modder, all you are doing is adding your own tweaks to customize or make the mod better in your opinion. you don't have the right to make the base mods files part of your mod so you need to keep that as a separate mod because the base mod does belong to the original modder and he does have the right to deny you the right to include his mod files in your mod release, you only have the right to release the files that you yourself mod.

even if a modder says I don't give my ok for you to make a mod that changes my mod, as far as I am concerned he has no say so in if you do or don't make that mod as long as you make no claim the base mods work is yours and you give credit to the modder who created it even if you don't thank him for it.

[TorpX]

Thanks much, Cap'n!

Your expertise is a great help to all of us.

[CapnScurvy]

Thanks Webster for waying in on the permissions question. Lurker hlb3's work is something to marvel at!! His pains taking efforts to rework the Campaign files stand out to be one of the best additions to the game!!

As I mentioned I've been looking at them and am struck by the shear magnitude of the work involved. He did most of this by hand to keep the Mission Editor from reassigning his dates.......it will cause us to do the same if we intend to tweak some of his files for better game play.

I have every intention of producing a mod to overlay his RSRDC_V550 mod with increased merchant traffic. As Webster points out, my plan is to have his mod reworked with the overlay that will give him the credit he so richly deserves, yet change a few things to my liking. Environment tweaks, Campaign files are just my beginning. My true thrust is to rework the manual targeting part of the game that I've started with Optical Targeting Correction and build on it. I see no reason why a target can't have multiple stadimeter points from which to measure from....starting with a better Recognition Manual. I also intend to rework how the interface of the game was designed, to allow for better, different inputs to the TDC. I've always admired Lurker's work with his added ships and planes (much of it gleaned from other modders) and wish to simply add to his work.

[Rockin Robbins]

Yes, with the real stadimeter you entered the height of the object you were measuring and the ONI recognition manual generally gave multiple heights on the ship.

After all, if he was far away you might use a cabin top because it was clearly visible when the masthead might not be. When you are closer in you might pick the masthead to increase the accuracy of the distance measurement, double-checking with a cabin height or deck height in case the masthead height were altered as the Japanese were known to do.

The higher the aspect you measure, the more accurate your distance measurement will be IF your record of the height is accurate. Unfortunately our recognition manuals didn't contain the majority of targets encountered and the ones that WERE identified in the manual were very frequently misidentified. That means the captain had the incorrect height. That means his distance measurement was very wrong.

The only thing that really got submarine targeting on track was ditching the stadimeter/ONI manual altogether and going with radar data. Then ID was unnecessary except for selecting spread and number of torpedoes.

Even with a giagantic target like the Shinano, Captain Joe Enright elected to leave the radar on and rely on radar data to plot his attack in spite of his clear knowledge that the Japanese could detect radar use. This speaks volumes about the relative usefulness of the stadimeter. And, of course, the Shinano would not have appeared in the manual anyway!

[Armistead]

Originally Posted by Webster

+1 on no permission needed to create a mod to mod other mods

any mod can be made to change other mods without permission but you just need to be sure to point out its a mod to alter the other mod and not imply its in any way endorsed by the other modder simply because they failed to object to it.

if its your mod and you say that then its in no way infringing on anything, you are just using another mod as a base for your mod to function so its not like you claim any credit for the work of the other modder, all you are doing is adding your own tweaks to customize or make the mod better in your opinion. you don't have the right to make the base mods files part of your mod so you need to keep that as a separate mod because the base mod does belong to the original modder and he does have the right to deny you the right to include his mod files in your mod release, you only have the right to release the files that you yourself mod.

even if a modder says I don't give my ok for you to make a mod that changes my mod, as far as I am concerned he has no say so in if you do or don't make that mod as long as you make no claim the base mods work is yours and you give credit to the modder who created it even if you don't thank him for it.

Just so I have this correct. Say I edited all the crew ratings in RSRD, obvious using all his existing mis files, just changing the ratings in them, would that be OK? Course, the downside in doing something that simple, you've created a large mod that includes 80% or so of his existing files. I never liked the ratings of RSRD, so long ago I went through every file and adjusted them. Obvious, easy to do, but very time consuming. As far as I know RSRD uses competent ratings for all merchants and capital ships, it may seem unrealistic, but increasing the ratings of those to vet and elite, they respond more like ships should.

I also added several ships, probably created after lurker left, such as the Nagato and placed or replaced them as historically as possible. For instance, replacing the Fuso Lurker uses instead of the Nagato in Kurita's Center Force.I also reworked most the capital ports, more guns, searchlights, nets, mines, etc. I added more special missions, several of TMO's convoy layers and several mis files of my own.

As RR said, RSRD does rework many of TMO's sensors. Tater mades some fixes for some of these, but I thought they needed further tweaking, mostly radar, so you had a chance of pulling off night surface attacks later war. I've always used my own envs, but I'm finally close to that perfect night env. where I can pull off realistic night surface attacks and escape without screwing up day visuals.

I did several other things, sure some were off RSRD files. My point is, by the time I was done, I had used and tweak 90% of RSRD to my liking. Rather than load mine on top of his, I just added the remaining RSRD files I needed into my mod, so I only load my one mod over TMO "RSRD tweaked". Obvious, this wouldn't be allowed, but I hate loading numerous large mods over each other. If I released a mod, it would be like loading RSRD again, just tweaked.

I'm not a modder like you guys, I'm a tweaker, about all I'm really good at is traffic and env/sensors. The thing is, many complain about the game, but the fact ,IMO, this game is far from it's potential. It's like every major mod has great points that need to be combined together into one mod. I have pieces of TMO, RFB, FORS, RSRD, Trav's and others tweaked to my liking in one mod. I don't have to choose or get stuck in the idea of one mod.

Originally Posted by Armistead

Just so I have this correct. Say I edited all the crew ratings in RSRD, obvious using all his existing mis files, just changing the ratings in them, would that be OK? Course, the downside in doing something that simple, you've created a large mod that includes 80% or so of his existing files. I never liked the ratings of RSRD, so long ago I went through every file and adjusted them. Obvious, easy to do, but very time consuming. As far as I know RSRD uses competent ratings for all merchants and capital ships, it may seem unrealistic, but increasing the ratings of those to vet and elite, they respond more like ships should.

I also added several ships, probably created after lurker left, such as the Nagato and placed or replaced them as historically as possible. For instance, replacing the Fuso Lurker uses instead of the Nagato in Kurita's Center Force.I also reworked most the capital ports, more guns, searchlights, nets, mines, etc. I added more special missions, several of TMO's convoy layers and several mis files of my own.

As RR said, RSRD does rework many of TMO's sensors. Tater mades some fixes for some of these, but I thought they needed further tweaking, mostly radar, so you had a chance of pulling off night surface attacks later war. I've always used my own envs, but I'm finally close to that perfect night env. where I can pull off realistic night surface attacks and escape without screwing up day visuals.

I did several other things, sure some were off RSRD files. My point is, by the time I was done, I had used and tweak 90% of RSRD to my liking. Rather than load mine on top of his, I just added the remaining RSRD files I needed into my mod, so I only load my one mod over TMO "RSRD tweaked". Obvious, this wouldn't be allowed, but I hate loading numerous large mods over each other. If I released a mod, it would be like loading RSRD again, just tweaked.

I'm not a modder like you guys, I'm a tweaker, about all I'm really good at is traffic and env/sensors. The thing is, many complain about the game, but the fact ,IMO, this game is far from it's potential. It's like every major mod has great points that need to be combined together into one mod. I have pieces of TMO, RFB, FORS, RSRD, Trav's and others tweaked to my liking in one mod. I don't have to choose or get stuck in the idea of one mod.

in my opinion, as long as you only include files you remodded then its ok because you changed his work and thereby its no longer his sole right to decide how its used.

but this is "my" opinion and not an official stance of subsim and I am sure there are others who might have other feelings about it.

I see it like this, we all take ubi's files and change them to claim as our mod and it is the exact same premis for modding existing mods in my opinion.

the files never belonged to lurker to dictate who uses them and as long as you are not using his file changes as he created them to claim as your own then there is no issue of "ownership" of file changes. you are "as it should be described" making a companion mod for use along with RSRDC and not a stand alone mod for sh4 using his work in it.

so it should require RSRDC be installed then your mod added after that it makes the changes to RSRDC so you are not combining his files within your mod but using your mod to make the changes.

[Armistead]

OK, I guess if it came to a big issue, Neal could decide. Heck, I still remember all the crap you went through when you first came out with GFO...

Originally Posted by CapnScurvy

Thanks Webster for waying in on the permissions question. Lurker hlb3's work is something to marvel at!! His pains taking efforts to rework the Campaign files stand out to be one of the best additions to the game!!

As I mentioned I've been looking at them and am struck by the shear magnitude of the work involved. He did most of this by hand to keep the Mission Editor from reassigning his dates.......it will cause us to do the same if we intend to tweak some of his files for better game play.

yes you cant use the mission editor for making changes, its best just used to get a good overview of how things are working but you have to manually edit all the campaign mission files.

the work lurker did was brilliant and IMO at the time it was the most impressive thing done for the game. I think he got discouraged by how little people thought about the work that went into it and just wanted to sit back and snipe about this or that that THEY wanted to see and why he didn't do it the way they wanted it done. in the end I think he felt his work wasn't properly respected.

I think there was a language misunderstanding issue at times because he seamed to often felt insults from people where they didn't exist.

I respect him and his work a lot but a lot of times talented people aren't easy to get along with

Originally Posted by Armistead

OK, I guess if it came to a big issue, Neal could decide. Heck, I still remember all the crap you went through when you first came out with GFO...

yep, that pretty much put an end to my desire to create any more mods and its only the perfectionist in me that pushed me to redo some of my older mods to clean them up and fine tune them as a "final" work and contribution so to speak. I still hope one day to find the motivation and time to do a GFO v2.0 to bring in the latest tweaks created for the game but I still have a bad taste from those attacks.

in your case with RSRDC I can't see where there should be any issue since lurker is no longer on the forums and isn't around to object to anything, he hasn't posted anything else since 2011 except he popped in for one post to say merry Christmas in 2012

I don't know what the statute of limitations is on unsupported mods but I would think its an outdated abandoned mod at this point if for no other reason then there is no one to get any permissions from if you wanted to ask for it. (again just my opinion)

[Rockin Robbins]

Originally Posted by Armistead

OK, I guess if it came to a big issue, Neal could decide. Heck, I still remember all the crap you went through when you first came out with GFO...

Well, as the maker of some of that stink I remember that Webster's first inclination was to release GFO as a patch. I objected because patches are released by game companies and include code changes as well as moddable file changes. Also calling something a patch would imply Ubi authorship and I believed that wasn't proper.

The other part of it I objected to was the GFO is a mod package that stands toe to toe with TMO and RFB, being a true supermod that relates to all aspects of the game. Calling it a patch, I thought, would be selling Webster short compared to its true status as something higher.

I still kinda like Webster's original original idea of a toolbox of compatible, interchangeable mods to mold the game to your choice. There could be three different varieties of environmental mods, three gameplay mods, three campaign mods, for instance. Choose the choice of your choice! Pick one of each category and load 'em up with the guarantee that they are all compatible and nobody will die. Then have eyecandy plugins too, that are perfectly compatible. It could be the first ala carte supermod if taken to its logical conclusion. I pushed the idea hard back in the day and had no takers.....

[Bubblehead1980]

Also, when someone drops off the face of the earth as lurker did(hope he is ok) and leaves the mod out there, come on. nothing wrong with people adding on and improving RSRD and sharing with the community.No one makes a profit or anything, it's simply for the enjoyment of the community.I have added quite a bit to RSRD and corrected some errors etc and plan to eventually release them to the community as an "add on" to RSRD. This was initially for my own use but others should enjoy as well.