Gun Control thread (merged many)

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by CaptainHaplo

Sadly Ducimus, neither foreigners nor the anti-second amendment crowd seem swayed by cold, hard facts. Let's look at our friends across the pond in Great Britain.

England basically "banned" the ownership of handguns in 1997. They made it excessively difficult to own one legally.

In 2001 - the BBC reported that in the following 2 years (all the data that was had at the time), the use of handguns during crimes INCREASED by 40%.

The largest increases - were in the areas where there were less legally owned guns. Those areas with the (still) highest legal gun ownership showed much less increase. In other words - criminals committed a lot more crimes where they knew that the victim was more likely to me unarmed...

Documented, cold, hard facts that gun control does not stop gun crime....
But that doesn't stop the anti-gun lobby.

Sources:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...-Dunblane.html
and
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/1440764.stm

Well do bear in mind that unlike the States, the hand-gun isn't a national symbol, or deeply imbedded in our culture, so naturally there's not much of an emphasis on repealing a ban. Shotguns would probably cause an uproar because of their use in the countryside area and on grouse shooting and such, so they'll never be banned. But a hand-gun has no real history or meaning for us, so after a primary school full of young kids got shot up there was little objection to banning them, and although it's done sod all to gun crime figures, we have so far not had another Dunblane. Whether that's to do with better mental health care than the US or the handgun ban, I couldn't say, but you're probably more likely to be stabbed than shot here. Guns for show, knives for a pro as the saying goes.
But there's a big old thing in the US, at least from this perspective there is, about the gun, I mean you could say that the nation was pretty much founded on the gun, so it has a much bigger meaning than it does in the UK or much of Western Europe, or indeed much of the world for that matter.
It's a part of American social history, perhaps not so much on the coastal regions, but certainly in the central and central south.
So, yeah, it does confuse us Europeans a bit when this intense fear and terror of your own government radiates across the Atlantic, we might not trust our governments but we've found them so incompetent that there's little to fear from them, particularly when our armed forces have one tank per Corps, so there's not so much of that panic and fear, except perhaps in Germany. So, that confuses us, well, it confuses me anyway, and I find it a little sad that so many people seem to live their lives in fear of something that they have very little control over.

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by Oberon

Well do bear in mind that unlike the States, the hand-gun isn't a national symbol, or deeply imbedded in our culture, so naturally there's not much of an emphasis on repealing a ban.

I wouldn't say any handgun is a national symbol on our part. We do however have at least a couple iconic handguns that the argument could be made are cultural items. The colt single action army (aka "Colt Peacemaker" your classic cowboy gun), and the Colt 1911 (used in some form in every major conflict of the 20th century ) immediately come to mind.

But there's a big old thing in the US, at least from this perspective there is, about the gun, I mean you could say that the nation was pretty much founded on the gun, so it has a much bigger meaning than it does in the UK or much of Western Europe, or indeed much of the world for that matter.
It's a part of American social history, perhaps not so much on the coastal regions, but certainly in the central and central south.

I agree with you, but as you say, not everyone here does. One thing to keep in mind is our country is nowhere near as old as yours, and it's commonly accepted beginning or birth is with the American Revolutionary War. We have plenty of iconic imagery of the common man, rifled musket in hand, off to defend his farm, family, and his freedom. I think because our nation is still a young nation comparatively, the iconic imagery invoked from this period is still deeply etched into our culture. Some places more then others.

So, yeah, it does confuse us Europeans a bit when this intense fear and terror of your own government radiates across the Atlantic

I also think (and this is just my opinion mind you) its because our national roots start with a revolutionary war against a government thought tyrannical; , that Americans, generally speaking, have to some degree, an intrinsic distrust have government.

[nikimcbee]

Guess I'll go back to communism and enforced homosexuality.

In 'merika, we call this "kali-fornia."

[Tchocky]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

I also think (and this is just my opinion mind you) its because our national roots start with a revolutionary war against a government thought tyrannical; , that Americans, generally speaking, have to some degree, an intrinsic distrust have government.

I understand this, I just find it strange that it hasn't really happened elsewhere to the same extent.

My own country fought a similar violent war fro independence. Less than a hundred years ago.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

I wouldn't say any handgun is a national symbol on our part. We do however have at least a couple iconic handguns that the argument could be made are cultural items. The colt single action army (aka "Colt Peacemaker" your classic cowboy gun), and the Colt 1911 (used in some form in every major conflict of the 20th century ) immediately come to mind.

The M1911 also comes to mind to me...I believe it was made the national symbol of Utah last year, if I remember correctly. Nothing wrong with that at all, only earlier myself and my mother were talking about firearms and the old Colts, they were very good weapons. I'd say though, out of all the firearms in American history, when people think of America, they think of the SAA because of the classic Western films. So it's a national identity I suppose, even if it's not seen that way internally.

I agree with you, but as you say, not everyone here does. One thing to keep in mind is our country is nowhere near as old as yours, and it's commonly accepted beginning or birth is with the American Revolutionary War. We have plenty of iconic imagery of the common man, rifled musket in hand, off to defend his farm, family, and his freedom. I think because our nation is still a young nation comparatively, the iconic imagery invoked from this period is still deeply etched into our culture. Some places more then others.

In a way, in Europe, we have that imagery with the sword, I think if you were to put a new shiny long sword and a new SAA down together on a table and ask people to come in and take a look, I think many Europeans would probably examine the sword first. In fact, if you listen to the lyrics of this song:

(Lyrics - http://mainlynorfolk.info/martin.car...fthesword.html)
Then you notice that if you replace sword with gun then you have a lot of similarities with modern life, and this was a song first written in Europe in the 17th century during the English Civil War. Even now there's medieval and renaissance fairs, so I guess whilst America was founded on the gun, Europe was founded on the sword and arrow.
Obviously, being only a fragmentary part of Europe (the UKs status as a part of Europe varies on who you ask in Europe and the UK ) I could very well be wrong, but certainly here in the UK it seems that way.

I also think (and this is just my opinion mind you) its because of our national roots start with a revolutionary war against a government thought tyrannical; , that Americans, generally speaking, have to some degree, an intrinsic distrust have government.

I would agree with you, from what I have seen at least, and you have to bear in mind that my understanding of America comes primarily from this site and the occasional BBC article. I haven't interacted with that many Americans since most of them left this area in the early 1990s.
It's a healthy thing to distrust a government, but the fear and in some cases almost a paranoia that can be seen, it is a tad worrying. I guess the internet probably hasn't helped things in that regard, for example, before the internet the conspiracy theories around 9/11 would most likely have been limited to books, the odd magazine and maybe a VHS, the audience level would have been quite small...but now on the internet thousands if not millions are exposed to every theory under the sun, backed up by videos, interactive graphics, pages and pages of text, and it's so readily available to us through search engines.
Either way, the tone of the world, it has changed so much since 2001, not just in America but the whole globe has gone from a sort of cheerfulness and hope for the new millenium, into bitterness, fear and despair. No longer are Utopian fiction popular but Dystopian, rather then good news, we are drip-fed bad news because that's what sells media. Is it little wonder that so many people who have time to think about the current world become depressed?


I'm sorry, that kind of fell off the topic a little there...just something I've had on my mind since re-watching footage of 9/11 today and reading the various threads in GT, and remembering life before the whole world knew the name Al'Qaeda.

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by Oberon

The M1911 also comes to mind to me...I believe it was made the national symbol of Utah last year, if I remember correctly.

State symbol, as opposed to a national symbol. Each of the states have their own symbology. State flower, state fish, what have you. Utah is probably one of the few (if not the only) states to adapt a handgun as a state symbol (it is however, not it's only state symbol). The designer, John Moses Browning was from Utah, which i think is seen as a point of pride, and the driving force behind adopting the 1911 as one of the states symbols.

Nothing wrong with that at all, only earlier myself and my mother were talking about firearms and the old Colts, they were very good weapons. I'd say though, out of all the firearms in American history, when people think of America, they think of the SAA because of the classic Western films. So it's a national identity I suppose, even if it's not seen that way internally.

Yeah, it is a classic. I know I wouldn't mind owning one.

In a way, in Europe, we have that imagery with the sword, I think if you were to put a new shiny long sword and a new SAA down together on a table and ask people to come in and take a look, I think many Europeans would probably examine the sword first. In fact, if you listen to the lyrics of this song:

(Lyrics - http://mainlynorfolk.info/martin.car...fthesword.html)
Then you notice that if you replace sword with gun then you have a lot of similarities with modern life, and this was a song first written in Europe in the 17th century during the English Civil War. Even now there's medieval and renaissance fairs, so I guess whilst America was founded on the gun, Europe was founded on the sword and arrow.
Obviously, being only a fragmentary part of Europe (the UKs status as a part of Europe varies on who you ask in Europe and the UK ) I could very well be wrong, but certainly here in the UK it seems that way.

Yeah I remember you mentioning swords before. Front what i've seen in the media, it looks like "saumarui swords" and other long blades are banned in the UK, and I never really understood that. I mean, are people running down the street with swords skewering each other? Of course, here in the US we have all types, for good and bad. You might find this interesting, if not entertaining:

Man with samurai sword chases off alleged stalker who attacked woman

A sword? REALLY? That is so unusual for here, that its an oddity in the news.

I would agree with you, from what I have seen at least, and you have to bear in mind that my understanding of America comes primarily from this site and the occasional BBC article. I haven't interacted with that many Americans since most of them left this area in the early 1990s.

Another thing that just occurred to me on our cultural engrain with firearms, is not just the revolutionary period, but the westward expansion. We do have this sordid tale of our Indian wars/uprisings, manifest destiny, frontier pioneers, and all that sort of thing, and is probably very unique to America. While this portion of our history is not really just about guns, guns do play their part, it's a portion of our history that I think has left an enduring mark in our national culture. If your at all curious, i highly recommend watching this series:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_West_%28documentary%29

It's not a flowery exposition of red white and blue BS. It really shows it for how it was. At least where our treatment of the indians is concerned. My wife and I both learned quite a bit watching it.

No longer are Utopian fiction popular but Dystopian, rather then good news, we are drip-fed bad news because that's what sells media. Is it little wonder that so many people who have time to think about the current world become depressed?

We do seem to have a hardon for the end of the world don't we?

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

State symbol, as opposed to a national symbol. Each of the states have their own symbology. State flower, state fish, what have you. Utah is probably one of the few (if not the only) states to adapt a handgun as a state symbol (it is however, not it's only state symbol). The designer, John Moses Browning was from Utah, which i think is seen as a point of pride, and the driving force behind adopting the 1911 as one of the states symbols.

Oh yeah, it is state rather than national, I mean if I had to pick a national symbol for the US it would probably be the Eagle, certainly that's the one that is used the most in the US, but the gun is also pretty far up there, as a national object.

Yeah I remember you mentioning swords before. Front what i've seen in the media, it looks like "saumarui swords" and other long blades are banned in the UK, and I never really understood that. I mean, are people running down the street with swords skewering each other? Of course, here in the US we have all types, for good and bad. You might find this interesting, if not entertaining:

Man with samurai sword chases off alleged stalker who attacked woman

A sword? REALLY? That is so unusual for here, that its an oddity in the news.

Made the news here too! Good on him, I say.

We have had a few sword stabbings here, like I say, you're more likely to be stabbed than shot in the UK.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2012/d...-samurai-sword

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/ne...-29562852.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...al-London.html

Knife amnesties work from time to time, the hauls they get from knife bins can be quite impressive, but considering that, unlike guns, knives are kitchen utensils as well as a weapon, there can never be a full ban. Police officers wear stab vests now, which helps, but it's still risky stuff.

That's not to say that gun crime isn't an issue, but it probably takes second place behind knife crime.

Katanas and their life (Samurai swords as they're often called) are probably the most popular because a) they're cool looking and seen in films like Kill Bill, and b) they're a bit easier to use than a long sword and do more damage. Gunny did a good comparison once:



(and a rebuttal has been posted in reply to that clip here - )

Personally, my taste runs towards European swords, but that's probably to do with my location rather than any form of practicality.

There's archery too, which is some pretty awesome stuff, but that's another subject entirely, and I must admit, archery based crime is not exactly a subject in the UK, probably something to do with it being a bit hard to hide a bow.

Another thing that just occurred to me on our cultural engrain with firearms, is not just the revolutionary period, but the westward expansion. We do have this sordid tale of our Indian wars/uprisings, manifest destiny, frontier pioneers, and all that sort of thing, and is probably very unique to America. While this portion of our history is not really just about guns, guns do play their part, it's a portion of our history that I think has left an enduring mark in our national culture. If your at all curious, i highly recommend watching this series:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_West_%28documentary%29

It's not a flowery exposition of red white and blue BS. It really shows it for how it was. At least where our treatment of the indians is concerned. My wife and I both learned quite a bit watching it.

I will have to check that out one day, I remember doing that time period in GCSE history, there was a large relief map of the US in the classroom, I remember looking over it and marvelling at just how many places called 'Greenville' you have in America.
But yes, it was a dark time and yet a time of brave and hardy people, and to be honest, if the expansion hadn't taken place as the United States of America, it most likely would have taken place in the name of the Thirteen Colonies or by the Crown. Once the technology was available to support it, expansion would have been inevitable. Just as it happened with the Spanish in South America.

We do seem to have a hardon for the end of the world don't we?

Don't we just? Funnily enough I attended a panel with novellists who had written apocalypitic novels and it asked the question why 'End of the world' stories had become so popular, and there was an American author there too, really nice chap, Peter V. Brett his name was, and he spoke about how life had changed since 9/11, and how things had gotten darker in literature, film and television, but also about how there's so many parts of the "SHTF" scenario that appeals to people, especially those who are stuck in the machine like embrace of modern living. It's a bit like the Artilleryman in H.G. Wells's classic novel 'The War of the Worlds', they see the end of the world as not a tragedy but as an opportunity to change their lifestyle and shape a future of their making.
Of course, if the S really did HTF, most of the people who feel that way would probably find themselves the first to get screwed.

[Sailor Steve]

Just an addition to the "State symbol" discussion: The M1911 is Utah's official State Firearm. John Moses Browning was born in Ogden, Utah and was a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (LDS, aka Mormon). He not only designed the M1911 pistol, but also the .50 caliber machine gun and the Browning Automatic Rifle (BAR) of WW2 fame. So yeah, he's a local hero.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Browning

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Just an addition to the "State symbol" discussion: The M1911 is Utah's official State Firearm. John Moses Browning was born in Ogden, Utah and was a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (LDS, aka Mormon). He not only designed the M1911 pistol, but also the .50 caliber machine gun and the Browning Automatic Rifle (BAR) of WW2 fame. So yeah, he's a local hero.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Browning

Yup. I just assumed everyone knew what enduring firearms Browning made so I didn't bother to go into it. Browning is practically synonmous with those firearms, not to mention the HiPower. I'd love to own a HiPower, its funny how they are not as popular, yet was a design improvement over the 1911.

EDIT:
@ oberon, interesting video's thanks. I had no idea there was a civilian (and i'm assuming a military, havent watched all of the second vid yet) version of the longsword. That first video by The Gunny must have really ruffled some feathers over there.

[CaptainHaplo]

Originally Posted by Oberon

Well do bear in mind that unlike the States, the hand-gun isn't a national symbol, or deeply imbedded in our culture, so naturally there's not much of an emphasis on repealing a ban.

I do understand. The US was founded on an armed rebellion by the populace against its government of the time. So yes, it is ingrained in our culture where it is not in others.

Shotguns would probably cause an uproar because of their use in the countryside area and on grouse shooting and such, so they'll never be banned.

Interesting point - especially because of the next sentence.

But a hand-gun has no real history or meaning for us, so after a primary school full of young kids got shot up there was little objection to banning them, and although it's done sod all to gun crime figures, we have so far not had another Dunblane.

If you mean another "mass school shooting" - then your right. If you meant another mass shooting regardless of location, then I would differ.
Specifically, the Cumbria shooting spree of June 2, 2010 in which 12 people were killed and 11 injured. 33 victims, over half of which died, definitely qualifies as a mass shooting. It is interesting to note that the perpetrator in that shooting used both a shotgun and a rifle - neither of which caused any push to ban them after the tragedy.

Guns for show, knives for a pro as the saying goes.

And as we say in the US: "Never bring a knife to a gunfight." Definitely different perspectives.

But there's a big old thing in the US, at least from this perspective there is, about the gun, I mean you could say that the nation was pretty much founded on the gun, so it has a much bigger meaning than it does in the UK or much of Western Europe, or indeed much of the world for that matter.

Exactly right.

I find it a little sad that so many people seem to live their lives in fear of something that they have very little control over.

That is the thing - as long as so many of us make it a concern - there is a LOT of control that we do have over it. It is this fact that makes an armed citizenry a danger to an oppressive government - and why keeping our 2nd amendment rights are so important.