Syria conflict: 'Chemical attacks kill hundreds'

[Feuer Frei!]

@ Skybird:

so was the Oker there 4 mths ago or is there now?
Sorry, the language barrier
Kannst ja Deutsch sprechen

But if that vessel is there now, what is Germany doing there?

Merkel says Germany remains a bystander, that was a few days ago she was quoted as saying that.

EDIT: hmm, it was there in 2012 as well?

The Oker was reportedly spotted near the Syrian coast in August 2012, collecting intelligence data in service to the Syrian rebels

[Skybird]

The Oker is a so-called Flottendienstboot, type 423 "Oste"-class, a "spy trawler" specialising in electornic intelligence gathering (though not a "trawler" ). Three such units are in service.



It's job is to sniff for electric transmissions. Why it is in Syria, should be obvious: you send your monitors to the hotspots of world's events. Others do that as well, or send submarines. I would not be surprised at all if a German 212 one day gets known to have operated there for intel-gathering as well.

My impression is that since the Oker recorded these intercepts and they now say these intercepts cover a timespan of 4 months, it obviously must have been on station then, and now.

[Skybird]

Meanwhile, The Sunday Daily Mail reports that Britain has issued five or six export licenses between 2004 and 2010 for chemical agents that are on some international list and are rated as dangerous since they are used for producing Sarin. The export licences were given at times when it already was known that Assad was stockpiling chemical weapons.

Always the same story. First we arm them, then they use them, then we act as if we are surprised and condemn the immorality of the action. No lie too big as if it is not worth to send own troops and have own soldiers risking their lives over it.

[Catfish]

This naivety really makes me want to vomit.

Certainly it is all about conspiracy theories, from the CIAs drugdealing to helping dictators all over the world as long as it was against the bad commies, to Gladio Nato-own state terrorism and blaming others, to all western nations having sooner or later delivered weapons to the Middle East, including chemical ones.
When i said a week ago here, the western nations should check their own bills to exactly know what weapons Assad had, it was also my "personal conspiracy theory".

Sry, of course all that never happened, speaking about it is unpatriotic, and what our and other governments tell us is sacred and always true.

[Skybird]

You are concerned about being accused of being "unpatriotic"?

In Germany...?

[MH]

Originally Posted by Catfish

This naivety really makes me want to vomit.

Certainly it is all about conspiracy theories, from the CIAs drugdealing to helping dictators all over the world as long as it was against the bad commies, to Gladio Nato-own state terrorism and blaming others, to all western nations having sooner or later delivered weapons to the Middle East, including chemical ones.
When i said a week ago here, the western nations should check their own bills to exactly know what weapons Assad had, it was also my "personal conspiracy theory".

Sry, of course all that never happened, speaking about it is unpatriotic, and what our and other governments tell us is sacred and always true.

We all know that a lot of shady thing had been done in context of cold war or global interests.
Some of them more justifiable while others not so...no one is naive about that.
Question is why you bring this all the time when it comes to this specific issue.
You seem to be calling for continuation of the same behavior based on the fact that west is dirty , corrupted and hypocritical anyway - while also complaining about it.

I can better understand people who simply say its none of our business and let them kill each other.

[Armistead]

So say we blow the hell out of Assad, so much it would open he door for the rebs to invade Damascus, what then? Look at the other cities, they look like WW2 bombers have flown over. Can you imagine the death and chaos if this hits Damascus?

I can't believe Obama took a big bite out of a Syria chit sandwhich, he'll never get the after taste out of his mouth. Hard to believe we're now
supporting al-Qaida rebels.

[Tchocky]

Nobody is saying that any of the options are any good.

That doesn't mean that they're all the same - some are better than others and doing nothing is the wrong choice in my view.

[Skybird]

A rumoured 3-days air campaign against 50-70 targets will neither impact on the chemical arsenal, nor will it seriously hurt the Syrian forces _ scattered across the country as they already are. Obama does it as a show only - and to get himself out of the corner he boxed himself into.

And the rebels - I heard a comment on radio today, describing the state of the FSA as even more inferior as I used to see it, and reminding of that not only is it outgunned and outfinanced by the radical groups, but that the socalled FSA for the most consists of former Assad soldiers who switched sides and now switch again and running to the radical groups, due to them outfunding and outgunning the FSA.

And these kind of guys, from which civilians flee as they flee from Assad troops as well, these airstrikes will give some relief. Must that be a case of getting involved at all? Worse genocides have gone unnoticed and uncared for in the past years - much worse.

[Catfish]

@MH -

Originally Posted by MH

We all know that a lot of shady thing had been done in context of cold war or global interests.

No, it seems most here do not remember, or do not want to remember. The repeating patterns are so obvious that i have to assume that most really do not know about the past.

Some of them more justifiable while others not so...no one is naive about that.

Either you stand for what you shout at the world officially and under which flag you take action, or you will have to take some fire if what you proclaim does not match reality. Justifiable.. yes i know what you mean.

Question is why you bring this all the time when it comes to this specific issue.
You seem to be calling for continuation of the same behavior based on the fact that west is dirty , corrupted and hypocritical anyway - while also complaining about it.

I bring this up because what has been said and lied then, is the same which happens now. That is a pattern, if governments lied then as has unfortunately (for them) leaked out, they certainly do the same now. And evidence turns up every day, literally.
Hypocritical, this is exactly what i mean, yes. And no i am not for a continuation of that same behaviour, as is obvious if you read my posts ?

I can better understand people who simply say its none of our business and let them kill each other.

Yeah i bet you can understand them. But those times seem to vanish, with the internet and mobile phones being able to record what really happens .. it is a war between the 'under-the-carpet sweepers' and people who want to know what their government or some shady sub-organisations really do, ihn their name.

[Armistead]

Originally Posted by Tchocky

Nobody is saying that any of the options are any good.

That doesn't mean that they're all the same - some are better than others and doing nothing is the wrong choice in my view.

You're wrong, they're no good options, better or worse. I know chemical weapons are bad, but they account for few deaths overall. A mass attack could open Damascus to attack and chaos. This is a CW, someone has to lose. If Assad goes, then the rebel groups will go to war with each other.

We can't get involved, because it's a lose lose for us. It will lead to another war, unless Obama just wants to prick attack for a political purpose. The only real answer is for a war, take out Assad, then take out the radical rebels. It would be long and costly like Iraq.

We don't need it. If we don't attack, maybe when it gets bad the UN or world will involve itself in the region, let us stay out of it....we're broke.

[Platapus]

The President has a staff, literally standing by, to respond 24/7 to any of his requests for information. He has another staff working 24/7 to predict what the President may need so that the first staff already has the information the President may ask for.

So why would the President of the United States need a printer on his desk????

[Betonov]

The pope just declared this conflict as a commercial war, intent for selling weapons and ammo.

I hate it when someone I inherently hate speaks sense

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Platapus

So why would the President of the United States need a printer on his desk????

I don't know. Maybe it's not his desk. Maybe the picture is photoshopped.

Why are we arguing about a joke?

[MH]

A rumoured 3-days air campaign against 50-70 targets will neither impact on the chemical arsenal, nor will it seriously hurt the Syrian forces _ scattered across the country as they already are. Obama does it as a show only - and to get himself out of the corner he boxed himself into.

If the rumors are true that is probably the case.
Yet Obama is going over his head to have it approved by the congress....go figure if he really wanted easy way out.

Either you stand for what you shout at the world officially and under which flag you take action, or you will have to take some fire if what you proclaim does not match reality. Justifiable.. yes i know what you mean.

So putting the calculus aside shouldn't we stand for the civilians who get gassed to death?

I bring this up because what has been said and lied then, is the same which happens now. That is a pattern, if governments lied then as has unfortunately (for them) leaked out, they certainly do the same now. And evidence turns up every day, literally

?????