Syria conflict: 'Chemical attacks kill hundreds' - Page 33

Jimbuna · 08-31-13, 03:48 PM

Governments in the west have survived with lower ratings

Jimbuna · 08-31-13, 03:54 PM

The circus continues...one of the clowns starts growing in confidence some might say....

Quote:

Russian President Vladimir Putin has challenged the US to present to the UN evidence that Syria attacked rebels with chemical weapons near Damascus.
Mr Putin said it would be "utter nonsense" for Syria's government to provoke opponents with such attacks.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23911833

Platapus · 08-31-13, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23911833

Quote:

They are taking the evidence they gathered during four days of site visits to the Organisation for the Prevention of Chemical Weapons, in The Hague.

The samples are thought to include soil, swabs from munitions, blood and hair from the victims and, experts say, possibly even flesh from dead bodies.

Excellent. Actual samples to be evaluated by an independent organization. This is exactly what we need. So the question for President Obama is, why not wait until the results of the tests are completed and published?

Packlife · 08-31-13, 04:28 PM

Well nobody is really disputing whether or not chemical weapons were used, thats the 1 thing that everybody has agreed upon. An maybe if it was just a few ppl who lived by a factory or plant sure, but when you have over 1,400 dead an they all came from multiple locations the idea that it was spilled chemicals from a factory falls short. I've heard former US Generals say they don't believe that the rebels could use these kind of weapons since they lack the proper ways to employ them i.e. jets an artillery pieces. Obama already said he's decided to strike Syria but he's gonna let the congress jam everything up for the next 10+ days. May God have mercy on those will pay the ultimate price for that horrible decision.

Platapus · 08-31-13, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Packlife

Well nobody is really disputing whether or not chemical weapons were used, thats the 1 thing that everybody has agreed upon.

I would be most interested in reading a citation that supports that.

That is a pretty big assertions to make on this issue.

u crank · 08-31-13, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Packlife

Obama already said he's decided to strike Syria but he's gonna let the congress jam everything up for the next 10+ days. May God have mercy on those will pay the ultimate price for that horrible decision.

Considering the fact that over 100,000 have been killed and over 1.5 million are refugees in other countries, it's a little late to close the barn door. The horse is gone.

kraznyi_oktjabr · 08-31-13, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Packlife

Well nobody is really disputing whether or not chemical weapons were used, thats the 1 thing that everybody has agreed upon. An maybe if it was just a few ppl who lived by a factory or plant sure, but when you have over 1,400 dead an they all came from multiple locations the idea that it was spilled chemicals from a factory falls short.<snip>

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

The Bhopal disaster, also referred to as the Bhopal gas tragedy, was a gas leak incident in India, considered the world's worst industrial disaster. It occurred on the night of 2–3 December 1984 at the Union Carbide India Limited (UCIL) pesticide plant in Bhopal, Madhya Pradesh. Over 500,000 people were exposed to methyl isocyanate gas and other chemicals. The toxic substance made its way in and around the shanty towns located near the plant. Estimates vary on the death toll. The official immediate death toll was 2,259. The government of Madhya Pradesh confirmed a total of 3,787 deaths related to the gas release. Others estimate 8,000 died within two weeks and another 8,000 or more have since died from gas-related diseases. A government affidavit in 2006 stated the leak caused 558,125 injuries including 38,478 temporary partial injuries and approximately 3,900 severely and permanently disabling injuries.

Bhopal disaster

Alex · 08-31-13, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

The circus continues...one of the clowns starts growing in confidence some might say....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23911833

.

vienna · 08-31-13, 05:08 PM

Obama is essentially doing what the Congress whines about every time a situation like this comes up; they always (no matter which party is in control) pout and fuss about how the President (again, of either party) is taking on too much power, how he is disregarding the "will of the people" (read: the will of the party in control of Congress) and all the other standard platitudes run out on these occasions. The real truth is all Congress has to do is fully repeal/revoke the War Powers Act and, if necessary, enact further checks on assumed presidential perogatives. Simple: don't want him to go to war without your say so, just pull the rug out from under his "powers". But this will never happen. Each party wishes to reserve those assumptive powers for when their guy is in the White House...

The other reality is the ability of any present or future President to respond to any international situation without an obstructive degree of scrutiny has been severly hampered by the actions of the Bush's neo-con cronies and the Cheney "Old Guard" in regards to the whole Iraq War mess. They have done for presidential initiative what Nixon did for the ability of the American people to have faith in the operations and intents of their goverment....

<O>

Skybird · 08-31-13, 06:08 PM

Syrian army have evacuated key facilities of theirs in Damascus. One can assume precious weapon platforms have been brought to hardened shelter as well, or are constantly moved around, or hidden. Key personnel of their weapons programs are in hiding already, too. Military command posts have been moved and evacuated.

But Obama said that "it does not matter whether to strike now, tomorrow or in one month". Obviously nobody briefed him on the meaning of "surprise"?! If striking, he should have done it already days ago.

Just saying. To illustrate into what a corner he has manouvered himself.

When he now fires, he will not do much damage, probably, not by the small scale that is to be expected. Which delivers a message of weakness, due to the limited reach and consequences of the strike.

When he doe snot strike,l he again now sends a message of weakness.

Assad may answer by launching a gassing attack afterwards. Which would damage America's and Obama's reputation even more.

The Americans will try hard to reduce the score on civilian victims, which will reduce the military effect of any strike even further. Such collateral losses will be propaganda assets for Assad, helping him to find new support in the Arab world.

Or Iran will stage one. With the same result for America.

As I see it, Obama has outmanouvered himself. And now only self-damaging options are left.

Clever. Assad may have overstepped a red line that was meant as a big-mouthed bluff. But Obama is trapped in the dumps - and that is no bluff, but is real.

Maybe another rhetoric lecturing of Putin on how angry a little boy Putin is, will help improve Obama's rating again?

One thing is certain. America has found the limits of its power and influence once again over this story. Even if it would produce a substantial, serious military major campaign, it then would cause shockwaves in the region (Iran, Lebanon, Israel, Hezbollah, Hamas, gulf states) that probably would dominate over any US military victory in a Syrian "field battle". The situation now and today is more complex and instable, than Iraq 2003. And the risks for Israel to get drawn into a war, are higher.

And then there is the angry big mouth in Turkey. Oh my, what a sight.

Never was the phrase "FUBAR" as precious as today!

Tchocky · 08-31-13, 06:23 PM

https://www.documentcloud.org/docume...utiontext.html

Draft resolution from the White House to Congress

Platapus · 08-31-13, 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tchocky

https://www.documentcloud.org/docume...utiontext.html

Draft resolution from the White House to Congress

Facepalm!

No end dates for re-authorization, no limits on scope, loop-holes you can fly a 747 through..... What could possibly go wrong?

Tchocky · 08-31-13, 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird

White phosphorus in an urban environment.

According to Tchocky so much more civilised than gassing. He obviously never has seen how it works on human flesh, and burns jnto the body with people going insane in pain. If you survive, the scars and mutilations are terrible.

At least respond to what I actually posted instead of playing stupid and offensive games with what I did not post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Platapus

Facepalm!

No end dates for re-authorization, no limits on scope, loop-holes you can fly a 747 through..... What could possibly go wrong?

I'd like to see an end-date as well, but to me the wording seems fairly tightly condensed to the chemical weapons aspect. As is every pronouncement coming out of Washington - no regime change, only a response to the gassing.

Packlife · 08-31-13, 06:38 PM

Yea I understand a lot of ppl have already died, but for Obama to go out on tv an say I've decided to use military force against Assad's regime an then say but first I'm chill for 10 days waitin for congress to come back from break. He could of at least asked them to come back early, but I did hear that the senate might come back early an do a vote of their own. What's crazy is Obama doesn't even need congress's authorization to do what he wants to do. If he wanted to declare an all out war on Syria then he'd need the congress to authorize that. An what I meant by the God have mercy on those who will suffer from his decision now, was that Assad is going to seriously crank up his attacks on the Syrian rebels an civilians. The weapons inspectors weren't even outta Damascus an the artillery batteries had started up again. Assad said he might attack Israel in retalliation, thats a horrible move on his part Israel is itching for a reason to go off on him. I think it was the Israeli PM or DM who said if anybody attacks them they will defend themselves "ferociously". An you know Israel does not play around they will tear somebody up bad.

mapuc · 08-31-13, 06:43 PM

I have written some comments in this thread. Mostly of what I believe and some from what I have read.

Now I rest and wait...until they have made this strike, then I again, can, from the result, give my point/argument

We all have our opinion on this issue and maybe some of them is head on.

I hope that USA isn't planing on getting involved in this Civil war, not more than just this "Narrow operation" against Assad.

Markus

08-31-13, 03:48 PM	#481
Jimbuna Chief of the Boat Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 250 metres below the surface Posts: 190,584 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 13	Governments in the west have survived with lower ratings __________________ Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something. Oh my God, not again!!

08-31-13, 05:08 PM	#489
vienna Navy Seal Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Anywhere but the here & now... Posts: 7,714 Downloads: 85 Uploads: 0	Obama is essentially doing what the Congress whines about every time a situation like this comes up; they always (no matter which party is in control) pout and fuss about how the President (again, of either party) is taking on too much power, how he is disregarding the "will of the people" (read: the will of the party in control of Congress) and all the other standard platitudes run out on these occasions. The real truth is all Congress has to do is fully repeal/revoke the War Powers Act and, if necessary, enact further checks on assumed presidential perogatives. Simple: don't want him to go to war without your say so, just pull the rug out from under his "powers". But this will never happen. Each party wishes to reserve those assumptive powers for when their guy is in the White House... The other reality is the ability of any present or future President to respond to any international situation without an obstructive degree of scrutiny has been severly hampered by the actions of the Bush's neo-con cronies and the Cheney "Old Guard" in regards to the whole Iraq War mess. They have done for presidential initiative what Nixon did for the ability of the American people to have faith in the operations and intents of their goverment.... <O> __________________ __________________________________________________ __ Last edited by vienna; 09-01-13 at 01:23 PM.

08-31-13, 06:08 PM	#490
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,645 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	Syrian army have evacuated key facilities of theirs in Damascus. One can assume precious weapon platforms have been brought to hardened shelter as well, or are constantly moved around, or hidden. Key personnel of their weapons programs are in hiding already, too. Military command posts have been moved and evacuated. But Obama said that "it does not matter whether to strike now, tomorrow or in one month". Obviously nobody briefed him on the meaning of "surprise"?! If striking, he should have done it already days ago. Just saying. To illustrate into what a corner he has manouvered himself. When he now fires, he will not do much damage, probably, not by the small scale that is to be expected. Which delivers a message of weakness, due to the limited reach and consequences of the strike. When he doe snot strike,l he again now sends a message of weakness. Assad may answer by launching a gassing attack afterwards. Which would damage America's and Obama's reputation even more. The Americans will try hard to reduce the score on civilian victims, which will reduce the military effect of any strike even further. Such collateral losses will be propaganda assets for Assad, helping him to find new support in the Arab world. Or Iran will stage one. With the same result for America. As I see it, Obama has outmanouvered himself. And now only self-damaging options are left. Clever. Assad may have overstepped a red line that was meant as a big-mouthed bluff. But Obama is trapped in the dumps - and that is no bluff, but is real. Maybe another rhetoric lecturing of Putin on how angry a little boy Putin is, will help improve Obama's rating again? One thing is certain. America has found the limits of its power and influence once again over this story. Even if it would produce a substantial, serious military major campaign, it then would cause shockwaves in the region (Iran, Lebanon, Israel, Hezbollah, Hamas, gulf states) that probably would dominate over any US military victory in a Syrian "field battle". The situation now and today is more complex and instable, than Iraq 2003. And the risks for Israel to get drawn into a war, are higher. And then there is the angry big mouth in Turkey. Oh my, what a sight. Never was the phrase "FUBAR" as precious as today! __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

08-31-13, 06:23 PM	#491
Tchocky Navy Seal Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 5,874 Downloads: 6 Uploads: 0	https://www.documentcloud.org/docume...utiontext.html Draft resolution from the White House to Congress __________________ [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

08-31-13, 04:28 PM	#484
Packlife Gunner Join Date: May 2013 Posts: 91 Downloads: 35 Uploads: 0	Well nobody is really disputing whether or not chemical weapons were used, thats the 1 thing that everybody has agreed upon. An maybe if it was just a few ppl who lived by a factory or plant sure, but when you have over 1,400 dead an they all came from multiple locations the idea that it was spilled chemicals from a factory falls short. I've heard former US Generals say they don't believe that the rebels could use these kind of weapons since they lack the proper ways to employ them i.e. jets an artillery pieces. Obama already said he's decided to strike Syria but he's gonna let the congress jam everything up for the next 10+ days. May God have mercy on those will pay the ultimate price for that horrible decision.

08-31-13, 06:38 PM	#494
Packlife Gunner Join Date: May 2013 Posts: 91 Downloads: 35 Uploads: 0	Yea I understand a lot of ppl have already died, but for Obama to go out on tv an say I've decided to use military force against Assad's regime an then say but first I'm chill for 10 days waitin for congress to come back from break. He could of at least asked them to come back early, but I did hear that the senate might come back early an do a vote of their own. What's crazy is Obama doesn't even need congress's authorization to do what he wants to do. If he wanted to declare an all out war on Syria then he'd need the congress to authorize that. An what I meant by the God have mercy on those who will suffer from his decision now, was that Assad is going to seriously crank up his attacks on the Syrian rebels an civilians. The weapons inspectors weren't even outta Damascus an the artillery batteries had started up again. Assad said he might attack Israel in retalliation, thats a horrible move on his part Israel is itching for a reason to go off on him. I think it was the Israeli PM or DM who said if anybody attacks them they will defend themselves "ferociously". An you know Israel does not play around they will tear somebody up bad.

08-31-13, 06:43 PM	#495
mapuc CINC Pacific Fleet Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Denmark Posts: 20,540 Downloads: 37 Uploads: 0	I have written some comments in this thread. Mostly of what I believe and some from what I have read. Now I rest and wait...until they have made this strike, then I again, can, from the result, give my point/argument We all have our opinion on this issue and maybe some of them is head on. I hope that USA isn't planing on getting involved in this Civil war, not more than just this "Narrow operation" against Assad. Markus