Syria conflict: 'Chemical attacks kill hundreds' - Page 2

Ducimus · 08-27-13, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eddie

I can't believe we are going to do this and for what? Its going to cause a lot of problems down the road, but the idiots in Washington don't care.

If the conspiracy theorists are correct, it's all about the

Quote:

Originally Posted by MH

It most likely will not be anything serious.
In terms of costs not much more than a big scale exercise.

I hope you are correct, but I am not as optimistic. What I am hoping for is that Obummer becomes paralyzed with indecision and ultimately does nothing, or makes a decision so late in the day that any window for US involvement has closed.

EDIT:

Quote:

Originally Posted by soopaman2

Exactly. There is nothing to gain, but alot to lose, even if we win.

I get Afghanistan, and kinda get Iraq, but feel we really need to stop and go back to pre WW1 isolationism, alot of social issues at home not being addressed, yet we can sell 8 helos to indonesia for 500 mil, and do nothing for the people who built and bought those things (taxpayers)

I agree that we have a lot of social issues that need to be addressed. In this day and age, we need to turn our attention inward. As for pre WW1 isolationism, I'm not sure that is possible given the amount of trading between nations. Rather, I think maybe we should adopt a policy of non-interventionism.

Betonov · 08-27-13, 12:44 PM

One thing will be interesting. The Russian reaction.

Mr Quatro · 08-27-13, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolferz

Who's to say that they don't have the activating chemicals stored in the same stockpile?

It's their civil war and the rest of us should keep our noses in our own bees wax.

This is why we should just remove the chemical weapons ... hell I would rather the present administration consider a buy back program for the darn things.

Where did they get such a huge stock pile anyway? If Iraq gave away jet fighter planes to Iran before we got there what else did they give away to Syria before the US forces arrived?

As for bombing the stored weapons that is a bad idea. That would be like cherry bombing an outhouse with terrible results.

Plus whatever happened to all of those US stockpiled chemical weapons that were caught leaking in Utah and killing sheep?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Betonov

One thing will be interesting. The Russian reaction.

This is the biggest question Obama as commander in chief has to face ...

The UN inspectors are scheduled to leave this Sunday (labor day weekend for the USA) and the Russian G20 summit meeting in Saint Petersburg is scheduled for September 5th and 6th which is just one week from this Thursday by the way.

President Obama has already cancelled a meeting with President/Premier (whatever he has elected himself to be) Putin over the Snowden NSA leaker problem.

Perhaps President Obama should reconsider his meeting with the Russian hard liner on the topic of chemical weapons use in Syria.

A little co-operation wouldn't hurt a thing ...

The USA can't go in or come out of that meeting with smoke coming out of Syria from airstrikes.

Leaves the next ten days in limbo

A car bomb the rebels get credit for is the least messy of all options

Wolferz · 08-27-13, 02:17 PM

Obama has a tee time. No time for considering anything else.
Maybe he could do the world a big favor and just go on vacation until his term has expired. Let Biden bungle it.

Skybird · 08-27-13, 02:40 PM

Hard to believe it, but they really seem to be determined to walk straight into th trap.

In case of crime, it is good to ask who benefits from it, and who has what motive.

Assad:

may think the West is weak and Obama is a mouth hero, but must nevertheless be in knowledge (fed by his advisors) about the US military's capabilities. He knew that there is the risk that the US will get engaged against himself if he steps over that famous red line.

And why should he want to do that, now, at this time? The war is running well for him. The Syrian army is in attack mode since months, with help by Hezbollah, Iran, and deliveries received from Russia, North Korea, and verbally supported (if not more?) by China. A lot of important strategic key places have been recaptured, the rebels are running in many places.

He also had the weapon inspectors under his nose, they have been in the country to investigate three other places when the incident now leading to this hype was staged by somebody.

Conclusion:

Assad has no interest to launch a massive chemical attack right now. He has no military or other need to so so. The timing speaks against it. A lot of risk is involved. He can get no compensation for the costs of it. In other words: he has had nothing to win from it now. He has no motive for it right now. Everything speaks against it. Assad is cold-blooded, ruthless and unscrupulous - stupid or insane he is not. At least not that we know

The opposition: Al Quaeda, terrorists, rebels, extremists, jihadists:

are in the defense, and have been hunted around in the recent weeks, been driven out of many strongholds they had taken before. Their situation doe snot allow to achieve military progress currently. They have only to win from chemical attacks taking place and claimed to have been ordered by Assad: a wavering, hesitant West could come to their support. They have no scruples to sacrifice civilians for their cause, as have the extremists of many factions in the ME have demonstrated over the years. The greater the horror being called out in the headlines of the world's newspapers, the better for them. The greater the bloodshed, the louder the call becomes to run to their rescue and assist them.

The timing of the attack is highly suspicious. The inspectors already in the country to examine three other locations - and right then during their visit this latest attack takes place!? How nice, timing could not have been any better!

Conclusion:

the rebels have only to win from staging a gas attack and claiming it to have been ordered by Assad. No risk for their cause is involved, the worst that could happen is that nothing happens and nobody reacts. Its a free bidding round for them.

Approaching this with reason and logic only, comparing the motives and situations of both sides, necessarily recommends the conclusion that the massacre has been conducted by the rebels.

In other words, NATO is about to embark on military assistance for a gang of medieval barbarians, West-hating jihadists, murderers not any better than Assad and Hezbollah are, and Al Queda-liking terrorists. Great service for NATO's reputation! Iran must love it.

The Russians probably see it right. Like it or not: they probably see it right.

The current inspectors' mission is only to examine whether or not a chemical attack took place. Trying to clear who conducted the attack if it was one, is not part of there mission. They also have not the time and options to do that. It is beyond their mandate.

Nobody so far has shown evidence for the claim that it was Assad. Britain, France and the US only presented claims so far. Modern history shows that it is imperative to not just trust mere American claims when it comes to excusing wars.

I think the rebels did it.

The US, Britain and maybe France once again walk straight into the giant trap that is called the Middle East. Especially the US seem to have a natural, inbred immunity to learning about the ME. And the British? Once again run and try to find the stick that their master has thrown. Must be great to be a poodle, considering how passionately they fill that role time and again. France cooks its own supper. It's about widening francophone influence and status around the Islamic mediterranean theatre. It's a long-lasting geostrategic ambition of theirs, to somehow compensate for their economic inferiority to Germany. Holland's vision of supersocialism is falling apart under the pressure of financial realities in France. Distracting a displeased public by running an external war is a proven tactic for desperate politicians, since eons.

Jimbuna · 08-27-13, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Betonov

One thing will be interesting. The Russian reaction.

I doubt they will do much more than sit back and view from the sidelines....which makes a lot more sense than what the west appear to be contemplating.

mapuc · 08-27-13, 12:44 PM

Russia !?

Where do they stand after an attack?

I know they support Assad and his regime

After? That's my thoughts

Per Stig Møller a danish politician and some other public people are afraid that it could end with a war between The west and Russia.

I'm not an expert on this, but I wouldn't go so far. Or???

Markus

Betonov · 08-27-13, 12:55 PM

Putin won't let himself be shown that a russian bear is only a paper tiger when it comes to supporting Assad. But a full scale war is out of the question.
Unless both sides start to escalate. Two dying empires showing off, not good

Catfish · 08-27-13, 01:01 PM

Well there is no real evidence for 'real' chemical weapons.

I do not much like Assad, but when i hear the media and governments talk of the alleged use of weapons of mass destruction it makes me wonder .. especially why i have difficulties believing them.

Cui bono ?

mapuc · 08-27-13, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Betonov

Putin won't let himself be shown that a russian bear is only a paper tiger when it comes to supporting Assad. But a full scale war is out of the question.
Unless both sides start to escalate. Two dying empires showing off, not good

Support in form of more advanced weapons, such as newest SAM system a.s.o, that could be the answer from Russia

Our journalist is speculating on the raid. They estimate that it will be 2-4 days campaign.

Here's a thought that I see very unlikely

Russia send 2-3 division of their most modern fighers to assisst Assad in defending Syria against an attack.

Edit:

Have just been talking with some of my friends on Facebook. They are from or live in Israel

They are afraid that Syria would attack them. Have also been told that the authorities in Haifa have tested the alarm and tested the shelters so they are ready if needed.

Markus

Oberon · 08-27-13, 12:50 PM

I can't see how the West intervening in Syria would affect the petrochemical industry in any other way but to make the prices go up, and the petrochemical bosses have got to realise that eventually they will hit the glass ceiling and demand will drop as governments activate their fuel rationing plans.

eddie · 08-27-13, 12:58 PM

I don't believe we will end up in a war with Russia, but trying to work out deals with Putin on different issues will be twice as hard. Same with China.

Tchocky · 08-31-13, 06:23 PM

https://www.documentcloud.org/docume...utiontext.html

Draft resolution from the White House to Congress

Platapus · 08-31-13, 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tchocky

https://www.documentcloud.org/docume...utiontext.html

Draft resolution from the White House to Congress

Facepalm!

No end dates for re-authorization, no limits on scope, loop-holes you can fly a 747 through..... What could possibly go wrong?

Packlife · 08-31-13, 06:38 PM

Yea I understand a lot of ppl have already died, but for Obama to go out on tv an say I've decided to use military force against Assad's regime an then say but first I'm chill for 10 days waitin for congress to come back from break. He could of at least asked them to come back early, but I did hear that the senate might come back early an do a vote of their own. What's crazy is Obama doesn't even need congress's authorization to do what he wants to do. If he wanted to declare an all out war on Syria then he'd need the congress to authorize that. An what I meant by the God have mercy on those who will suffer from his decision now, was that Assad is going to seriously crank up his attacks on the Syrian rebels an civilians. The weapons inspectors weren't even outta Damascus an the artillery batteries had started up again. Assad said he might attack Israel in retalliation, thats a horrible move on his part Israel is itching for a reason to go off on him. I think it was the Israeli PM or DM who said if anybody attacks them they will defend themselves "ferociously". An you know Israel does not play around they will tear somebody up bad.

08-27-13, 02:17 PM	#4
Wolferz Navy Seal Join Date: May 2007 Location: On a mighty quest for the Stick of Truth Posts: 5,963 Downloads: 52 Uploads: 0	Obama has a tee time. No time for considering anything else. Maybe he could do the world a big favor and just go on vacation until his term has expired. Let Biden bungle it. __________________ Tomorrow never comes

08-27-13, 02:40 PM	#5
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,615 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	Hard to believe it, but they really seem to be determined to walk straight into th trap. In case of crime, it is good to ask who benefits from it, and who has what motive. Assad: may think the West is weak and Obama is a mouth hero, but must nevertheless be in knowledge (fed by his advisors) about the US military's capabilities. He knew that there is the risk that the US will get engaged against himself if he steps over that famous red line. And why should he want to do that, now, at this time? The war is running well for him. The Syrian army is in attack mode since months, with help by Hezbollah, Iran, and deliveries received from Russia, North Korea, and verbally supported (if not more?) by China. A lot of important strategic key places have been recaptured, the rebels are running in many places. He also had the weapon inspectors under his nose, they have been in the country to investigate three other places when the incident now leading to this hype was staged by somebody. Conclusion: Assad has no interest to launch a massive chemical attack right now. He has no military or other need to so so. The timing speaks against it. A lot of risk is involved. He can get no compensation for the costs of it. In other words: he has had nothing to win from it now. He has no motive for it right now. Everything speaks against it. Assad is cold-blooded, ruthless and unscrupulous - stupid or insane he is not. At least not that we know The opposition: Al Quaeda, terrorists, rebels, extremists, jihadists: are in the defense, and have been hunted around in the recent weeks, been driven out of many strongholds they had taken before. Their situation doe snot allow to achieve military progress currently. They have only to win from chemical attacks taking place and claimed to have been ordered by Assad: a wavering, hesitant West could come to their support. They have no scruples to sacrifice civilians for their cause, as have the extremists of many factions in the ME have demonstrated over the years. The greater the horror being called out in the headlines of the world's newspapers, the better for them. The greater the bloodshed, the louder the call becomes to run to their rescue and assist them. The timing of the attack is highly suspicious. The inspectors already in the country to examine three other locations - and right then during their visit this latest attack takes place!? How nice, timing could not have been any better! Conclusion: the rebels have only to win from staging a gas attack and claiming it to have been ordered by Assad. No risk for their cause is involved, the worst that could happen is that nothing happens and nobody reacts. Its a free bidding round for them. Approaching this with reason and logic only, comparing the motives and situations of both sides, necessarily recommends the conclusion that the massacre has been conducted by the rebels. In other words, NATO is about to embark on military assistance for a gang of medieval barbarians, West-hating jihadists, murderers not any better than Assad and Hezbollah are, and Al Queda-liking terrorists. Great service for NATO's reputation! Iran must love it. The Russians probably see it right. Like it or not: they probably see it right. The current inspectors' mission is only to examine whether or not a chemical attack took place. Trying to clear who conducted the attack if it was one, is not part of there mission. They also have not the time and options to do that. It is beyond their mandate. Nobody so far has shown evidence for the claim that it was Assad. Britain, France and the US only presented claims so far. Modern history shows that it is imperative to not just trust mere American claims when it comes to excusing wars. I think the rebels did it. The US, Britain and maybe France once again walk straight into the giant trap that is called the Middle East. Especially the US seem to have a natural, inbred immunity to learning about the ME. And the British? Once again run and try to find the stick that their master has thrown. Must be great to be a poodle, considering how passionately they fill that role time and again. France cooks its own supper. It's about widening francophone influence and status around the Islamic mediterranean theatre. It's a long-lasting geostrategic ambition of theirs, to somehow compensate for their economic inferiority to Germany. Holland's vision of supersocialism is falling apart under the pressure of financial realities in France. Distracting a displeased public by running an external war is a proven tactic for desperate politicians, since eons. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert. Last edited by Skybird; 08-27-13 at 02:54 PM.

08-31-13, 06:23 PM	#13
Tchocky Navy Seal Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 5,874 Downloads: 6 Uploads: 0	https://www.documentcloud.org/docume...utiontext.html Draft resolution from the White House to Congress __________________ [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

08-27-13, 12:44 PM	#2
Betonov Navy Seal Join Date: May 2009 Location: Slovenia Posts: 8,647 Downloads: 26 Uploads: 0	One thing will be interesting. The Russian reaction.

08-27-13, 12:44 PM	#7
mapuc CINC Pacific Fleet Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Denmark Posts: 20,537 Downloads: 37 Uploads: 0	Russia !? Where do they stand after an attack? I know they support Assad and his regime After? That's my thoughts Per Stig Møller a danish politician and some other public people are afraid that it could end with a war between The west and Russia. I'm not an expert on this, but I wouldn't go so far. Or??? Markus

08-27-13, 12:55 PM	#8
Betonov Navy Seal Join Date: May 2009 Location: Slovenia Posts: 8,647 Downloads: 26 Uploads: 0	Putin won't let himself be shown that a russian bear is only a paper tiger when it comes to supporting Assad. But a full scale war is out of the question. Unless both sides start to escalate. Two dying empires showing off, not good

08-27-13, 01:01 PM	#9
Catfish Dipped Squirrel Operative Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: ..where the ocean meets the sky Posts: 17,766 Downloads: 38 Uploads: 0	Well there is no real evidence for 'real' chemical weapons. I do not much like Assad, but when i hear the media and governments talk of the alleged use of weapons of mass destruction it makes me wonder .. especially why i have difficulties believing them. Cui bono ?

08-27-13, 12:50 PM	#11
Oberon Lucky Jack Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 25,976 Downloads: 61 Uploads: 20	I can't see how the West intervening in Syria would affect the petrochemical industry in any other way but to make the prices go up, and the petrochemical bosses have got to realise that eventually they will hit the glass ceiling and demand will drop as governments activate their fuel rationing plans.

08-27-13, 12:58 PM	#12
eddie Ocean Warrior Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,023 Downloads: 99 Uploads: 0	I don't believe we will end up in a war with Russia, but trying to work out deals with Putin on different issues will be twice as hard. Same with China.

08-31-13, 06:38 PM	#15
Packlife Gunner Join Date: May 2013 Posts: 91 Downloads: 35 Uploads: 0	Yea I understand a lot of ppl have already died, but for Obama to go out on tv an say I've decided to use military force against Assad's regime an then say but first I'm chill for 10 days waitin for congress to come back from break. He could of at least asked them to come back early, but I did hear that the senate might come back early an do a vote of their own. What's crazy is Obama doesn't even need congress's authorization to do what he wants to do. If he wanted to declare an all out war on Syria then he'd need the congress to authorize that. An what I meant by the God have mercy on those who will suffer from his decision now, was that Assad is going to seriously crank up his attacks on the Syrian rebels an civilians. The weapons inspectors weren't even outta Damascus an the artillery batteries had started up again. Assad said he might attack Israel in retalliation, thats a horrible move on his part Israel is itching for a reason to go off on him. I think it was the Israeli PM or DM who said if anybody attacks them they will defend themselves "ferociously". An you know Israel does not play around they will tear somebody up bad.