The future of Submarine simulations

[Julhelm]

Danger from the Deep was essentially a more hardcore Silent Hunter 3. I personally believe it failed because the team bit off more than they could chew and lost interest.

When you're developing something, there's a certain amount of momentum that needs to be kept and once you lose that it's usually the end of that project. The world of sims is littered with once-promising projects that turned out to be just too ambitious and were abandoned.

[Hawk66]

Originally Posted by makman94

i completely agree with all you said Nexus7

Sub Command , Dangerous Waters (and their 'mother' 688i) are the best subsim(even unmodded) we have... even today

I also agree...Sonalysts sim were not top when it comes to graphics but their core naval engine is the best commerical naval engine out there.... the possibilites - especially with DW - were and are still endless - especially with the mods.

I've never really understood why not more people have tried out or play regularily DW especially after their was the DW Wiki with a lot of good content , tutorials and articles. Also DW really does not need a high-end machine.

[Julhelm]

For me it has to be that DW and the Sonalysts games in general are too much like technical demonstrations than immersive games the likes of Seawolf or Red Storm Rising. It's kind of like how Black Shark is much more advanced simulator yet in ways a much lesser sim than Gunship 2000 was 20 years ago.

[Hawk66]

Originally Posted by Julhelm

For me it has to be that DW and the Sonalysts games in general are too much like technical demonstrations than immersive games the likes of Seawolf or Red Storm Rising. It's kind of like how Black Shark is much more advanced simulator yet in ways a much lesser sim than Gunship 2000 was 20 years ago.

Yes, that is true and if I have one major criticism concerning DW than that they might should have put a little more effort in getting away from the look-and-feel of a navy trainer but emphasizing (optionally) more the captain's view like in RedStormRising. You're right, RSR is still unbeaten when it comes to transporting a strong theme (cold war) within a nuclear submarine simulator.
What I really find astonishing is that even after more than 20 years there are still new reviews about this sim published in different languages and all those reviews are transporting the same message: How is it possible that such an old software creates such a tense atmosphere with minimal graphics&audio and compared to today's standard with a minimal budget.

What I've also realized is that apart from the power of the mission editor in DW, which is boosted by undocumented features - like the possibility to fine-control individual AI units, the majority of the people do not have the time or the passion to play with this tool. I think that more or less all Microprose simulations from the 80's and early 90's had dynamic campaigns, was a big contributor to their success.

[Julhelm]

I think a big reason why RSR still holds up well is because it's a Sid Meier game. The guy's a genius.

[Nexus7]

I think a big reason why RSR still holds up well is because it's a Sid Meier game. The guy's a genius.

must agree: the games i played the most are still civilization 1 and 2

[Platapus]

One of the issues with having our "community" design a subsim is gaining consensus.

Each one of us knows what would make a great sub sim game.....but can we agree?

Some want emphasis on graphics for appearance
Some want more reasonable graphics for platform compatibility)
Some want more technical simulation (player does more stuff)
Some want less technical simulation (player delegates stuff to AI)
Some want adversarial multiplayer
Some want cooperative multiplayer
Some don't want multiplayer at all.

And probably a hundred more conflicting desires.

What is important to me, I can guarantee is not important to others.

I just can't see the Subsim community working this out en-mass.

[Nexus7]

Some want emphasis on graphics for appearance
Some want more reasonable graphics for platform compatibility)

First two points apart (not sure what you mean with the second one), the other points are not conflicting and covered by DW.

Some want more technical simulation (player does more stuff)
Some want less technical simulation (player delegates stuff to AI)

In Dangerous Waters you can choose full manual or delegate some stations to the AI.

Some want adversarial multiplayer - DW has it
Some want cooperative multiplayer - DW has it (so called multistation multiplayer)
Some don't want multiplayer at all. -DW has it

but you're right anyway. Despite the above points are well covered, the list of whishes in regards of DW is as long as the bible. And I don't call me out: for example in SC the CM's couldnt detonate the fishes, making evasion an art. In DW they can. I don't like that

To set up a suitable team for such a project is probably as difficult as the development part itself

[vytek]

Hi to all.
I have read thie discussion and it is very interesting.
My dream is to have an OpenSource framework to simulate all vehicle (submerged and surfaced). A sort of OS subsim where anyone can create modules (open and closed source, both free and to be purchased) and simulate a sea war game.

I would like it to be:
1) OpenSource and free
2) Playable in internet
3) With real and NPC vessel

I have read an academy project very interesting:
http://oceansys.fe.up.pt/publication...antosMatos.pdf
http://sourceforge.net/projects/wavesim/

Is this project useful to understand how to simulate physics?
Are there other resources to study, analize, understand dynamics, sound propagation and water simulation?

I know that similar projects have been attempted ...are there any source code to study?

I would like to use:

3D Engine: http://sourceforge.net/projects/irrlichtlime/
Phisics Engine: http://www.mataliphysics.com/
Network Library: http://code.google.com/p/lidgren-network-gen3/
Sound Library: http://www.ambiera.com/irrklang/

Any type of help is welcome!!

Sorry for my bad english.
Regards.

[biosthetique]

Originally Posted by Blacklight

The other problem is, sadly, that I don't see us getting much in the way of "new blood" into the hardcore sim community. The younger people who we need to flow into the community are, for the most part, not attracted to games that are slow moving, and especially not ones where they have to read a manual to learn to play. Do you know how many people my Dangerous Waters manual has scared off from even giving the game a try? I'd love to give society the benefit of the doubt, but I just don't see the younger generation, that we need to bolster the community, having anywhere NEAR the attention span that's needed to play these games. I just don't see it.

In the hardcore simmers world, there are some distinctions to make.

That community is at least to be divided in half. One half being made up of simmers like you and the other half made up of gamers pretending and asking to be recognized as hardcore simmers when in fact they are buying and playing hardcore sims, in Arcade mode.

Such players are not committed to a simulation, but to an entertainment mode where they can blow the Crap up, in ways that seem to them REALISTIC, with all the Hollywood effects to feel like they were a "A LETHAL WARRIOR". They would meet up on line with their manned up bodies, play a Sim in Arcade mode and club AI baby seals, because "Force on Force" was too hard. Then brag about how good they were. I have seen it, experienced it in Tactical Gamers, SimHQ, etc... playing games such as Arma's, Steel Beast Pro pe, Swat 4, etc...

Hence, your DW manual did not interest them and never will. That is the acid test to separate the wheat from the chaff.

A real hardcore vet simmer, will still be a simmer tomorrow, a fake hardcore simmer will switch after a while to console gaming, anything that shines and easy to play.

The new gaming generation goes for ease. Moreover, the ones attracted to sims, will have the same interests in simulation as their counterparts before. People wanting to be James Bond for an hour pretending to be a Hardcore simmers so their wives and kids will leave them alone "SIMULATING", and not have an imaginary stigma attached to "playing a computer game". Then, the other 1/2 that eat, breath the simulation of the complexity and operation of some technologies, and enjoy it.

The only difference today, is the availability of platform variation to play a game.

I have been a gamer for 20 years, and I have seen it and experienced it!

[desertstriker]

Originally Posted by biosthetique

Hence, your DW manual did not interest them and never will. That is the acid test to separate the wheat from the chaff.

are you saying you have to play DW to be a hard core simmer? i sure hope not because DW may not have the same alure to them and cannot get into it for their own reasons perhaps being a modern simulator and not a WW2 simulator for example.

[biosthetique]

A sim is a sim!....And a manual is a manual!....Read again Blacklight post!

[hellfish6]

Originally Posted by biosthetique

In the hardcore simmers world, there are some distinctions to make.

That community is at least to be divided in half. One half being made up of simmers like you and the other half made up of gamers pretending and asking to be recognized as hardcore simmers when in fact they are buying and playing hardcore sims, in Arcade mode.

Such players are not committed to a simulation, but to an entertainment mode where they can blow the Crap up, in ways that seem to them REALISTIC, with all the Hollywood effects to feel like they were a "A LETHAL WARRIOR". They would meet up on line with their manned up bodies, play a Sim in Arcade mode and club AI baby seals, because "Force on Force" was too hard. Then brag about how good they were. I have seen it, experienced it in Tactical Gamers, SimHQ, etc... playing games such as Arma's, Steel Beast Pro pe, Swat 4, etc...

Hence, your DW manual did not interest them and never will. That is the acid test to separate the wheat from the chaff.

A real hardcore vet simmer, will still be a simmer tomorrow, a fake hardcore simmer will switch after a while to console gaming, anything that shines and easy to play.

The new gaming generation go for ease. Moreover, the ones attracted to sims, will have the same interests in simulation as their counterparts before. People wanting to be James Bond for an hour pretending to be a Hardcore simmers so their wives and kids will leave them alone "SIMULATING", and not have an imaginary stigma attached to "playing a computer game". Then, the other 1/2 that eat, breath the simulation of the complexity and operation of some technologies, and enjoy it.

The only difference today, is the availability of platform variation to play a game.

I have been a gamer for 20 years, and I have seen it and experienced it!

Sorry, but this is one of the dumbest posts I've read in a long time. It's hard to tell, as you write like a 12 year old (though, admittedly, with more proper grammar and spelling) but it seems to me that you're complaining about the people who don't dedicate their waking lives to games, which makes them less valid as consumers of entertainment in your eyes.

Who cares how a person plays a game? All good games allow players - be they super hard core because they prioritize that in their life; or others, who prioritize other things in life and can't invest the time to learn something at an operator-level of efficiency - play the game as they want to.

SH3 was a success because it catered to both. SH4 was almost there too. If everyone only ever made games for the die hard sim crowd, there would be no gamers today - just a extremely vocal minority of zealots who can never, collectively, be pleased.

Who are you to judge one way is the Right™ way to play a game, and the other way is the Wrong™ way? Congratulations - you have the time and energy to invest in something you paid $40 for and know intimately.

I have a job (which, by the way, has me deployed overseas doing the exact same thing most of you here are simming) and a family and a fairly active social life. I still like - nay, love - gaming. I just can't invest the time and effort into it that you do.

I don't care how many rivets a Type VIIC U-boat has. I don't care if it dives 0.25m per second slower than the real one does. I care that it looks like a sub, plays like a sub, and sinks things like a sub. And, yes, unless I cheat, it sinks like a damn sub too.

But obviously I'm the one wrong here and ruining it for everyone else that's a Real Hardcore Simmer™. Where's my Xbox?

[Hawk66]

I think it would be good if you guys calm down a little.

A good sim is accessible to both types of player: hardcore and casual.
Even the king of all sims, which is for me Falcon 4.0, had some in-built settings and game modes...directly aimed at the casual gamer. Or look at the Microprose simulations...

DW does do that job...the only issue is that it would be helpful if the manual would include also a tutorial chapter...running an example mission for the casual gamer...

[Herr-Berbunch]

Originally Posted by hellfish6

It's hard to tell, as you write like a 12 year old (though, admittedly, with more proper grammar and spelling) but it seems to me

Please bear in mind we are an international community with a great deal of members who have English as a second, third, or more language. Even those who don't have it as their primary language do a much better job of it that native English speakers returning the favour. Also we are a family-friendly forum, it's possible that the writing like a 12 year old could actually be from a 12 year old, or younger.

Regards,

Herr-Berbunch