US warns of Snowden consequences

Skybird · 06-24-13, 03:48 PM

Prism, Tempora - not surprising at all. The Americans have used stations in England since the 70s or early 80s already to overhear over 90% of all telephone and radio communiction in all of Europe, and beyond. With today's technological capacities, the surveillance of any electonic communication is total, I'm sure, and much automated.

Surprising only is how little people care. They already are pretty much in nausea, it seems.

Of course I do not trust terrorists. It's just that I see zero reason to trust governments either, and week for week I read new evidence and news from all Western world how much my mistrust is justified.

The fallout of a total surveillance society with crystal clear transparency of the state's self-declared property units - citizens, that are -, will become evident in the future. Maybe then will people care, if meanwhile for some reason they woke up. It's just that then it will be too late, and the monster will be at the maximum of its power and control.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/...-a-907495.html

A people not caring for its freedom, does not deserve freedom.

Nor respect or sympathy.

We all are ruled to become just enslaved numbers. Submit! Obey! Shut up! Praise the system! Die for its lies! Fight for its defence! Believe in its illusions!

A new cult is born. Hallelujah!

Catfish · 06-24-13, 04:14 PM

From the article ^:

"The next weeks and months will show whether democratic societies across the world are strong enough to take a stand against the unlimited, totalitarian ambitions of Western secret services -- or not.

The governments of the countries in question apparently did not have the necessary backbone. They knew full well that the kind of surveillance being undertaken lacked all democratic legitimacy. But they pursued the programs anyway, behind the backs of their electorates."

Nothing to add.

Wolferz · 06-24-13, 04:40 PM

Any society that surrenders even one freedom for security deserves neither and will lose both.
I could understand going after the guy with both barrels if he had actually divulged strategic "military" information to a sovereign foreign enemy we are at war with. We are not at war with any sovereign state. We are at war against a religious ideology and stirring the war pot for the next incursion.

If we know nothing of the big picture in DC, then it is by design that we are kept ignorant of their actions. Especially when those actions trample on our rights and our constitution. Sure, they claim that there is plenty of oversight with the programs in question but, we all know that politicians are psychopathic liars and they are following the instructions of a relative few elite individuals that preside over the Council on Foreign Relations, the Trilateral Commission and numerous corporate cabals who are seeking unfettered hegemonic control of the planetary resources. Strictly for their own monetary gain. They have nearly solidified their power and they answer to no one.

.

Platapus · 06-24-13, 05:25 PM

The world is a very dirty nasty place. Many Citizens can live their lives happy; partly because they don't know what is really happening concerning foreign policy.

I wish the world was nice and clean with the good guys wearing white hats and the bad guys wearing black hats. Everyone wears grey hats. Some a little lighter, some a little darker, but all grey. One person's good guy is another person's bad guy. Most people are both good and bad at the same time, depending on viewpoint.

I would like to point out that NSA is not some nameless/faceless government entity. It is staffed with almost a million American citizens. Each of which have the same values, ethics, and concerns as many other citizens.

Almost a million people who every day they are at work are asking themselves, "Are we operating within the law".

Almost a million people who every year raise concerns through appropriate channels where issues are investigated and changes are made.

Almost a million people tasked with a very difficult job, in a difficult environment, doing their duty to the best of their ability, every day.

Almost a million people who are Americans and are just as concerned with civil rights as we are.. after all, they are citizens too.

I know that it is trendy to have the attitude that the "government" is corrupt. Everyone's doing it. I guess all the cool kids can feel superior with their "knowledge" about what happens in the government.

But the government is made up of US citizens... just like us. There are good ones, and bad ones... just like us. And imperfect ones... just like us.

Same values, same concerns, same desires... We are, after all, a government made up of the people. And some of these people have a very difficult job they do and they do it with professionalism.... every day.

And then there are those who are not professional.... just like us.

Sailor Steve · 06-24-13, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Platapus

I know that it is trendy to have the attitude that the "government" is corrupt. Everyone's doing it. I guess all the cool kids can feel superior with their "knowledge" about what happens in the government.

Saying something is "trendy" is a good way to dismiss it. Is the government corrupt? If so, should we do nothing about it?

This isn't about the government being corrupt. It's about a part of the government conducting an activity that may be illegal. Did it? I admit that I don't know. That said, should we not investigate it because the belief that it is is "trendy"? More to the point, this particular thread isn't even about the government directly, it's about the man who exposed that activity. Is he a criminal? Is he a hero?

Platapus · 06-24-13, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

It's about a part of the government conducting an activity that may be illegal.

And that is the cogent question.

It might be a good for the legality of the actions to be determined before people get spun up.

There are people posting on the Internets Tubes who seem to take it as demonstrated that the government violated laws. Let's answer that question first before we start declaring someone a hero or a baddie.

August · 06-24-13, 07:58 PM

IMO legality is immaterial. Mass surveillance of the American people without their knowledge let alone permission is just plain wrong.

Tchocky · 06-24-13, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by August

IMO legality is immaterial. Mass surveillance of the American people without their knowledge let alone permission is just plain wrong.

I agree.

But the only channel for that permission is the legislative process. Which says this is legal, and borne from legislation enacted by elected officials. The Supreme Court hadn't ruled on the Patriot Act (ugh, did it have to be called that?) so the legality isn't in question yet. The knowledge part is trickier. Legitimate security concerns run up against the obligation of transparency and I don't know how to square that circle.

Skybird · 06-24-13, 06:11 PM

If only it were that simple, Platapus.

But what is being established, is like the government having a policeman living in your apartment, overhearing what you talk with your family and people on the phoned and at work, to protect other families from you trying to rob them or breaking into their houses.

What is being established is that foreigners in the all the world all get treated like criminals, needed to be assumed as guilty as long as their innocence is not proven. This is especially true for people travelling into the US. Business traffic has dropped into the Us, because many business people simply are pissed.

What is being established is a mentality training, to educate people to live naked and totally exposed to the government, without having any control or insight into government's intentions and activities. The government no longer fears the people: the people fear the government. The government is no longer liable and must account to the people, but the people are being held accountable by the government.

What is being established is a total digitalization of private sphere and private life, and the ability to just push a button to learn all and everything about people, no matter whether it is security relevant or not. Your whole existence potentially can be destroyed by somebody just accessing a database and using what he finds there about you. Your job. Yiur health insurance. The potential for abuse and blackmailing are endless. Its an abyss opening up there.

And lets face it, when it is in monopolistic businesses' profit interest or politicians' interest or finance offices or insurance'S interest to exploit data about you for their own advantage and intention, then they will do it. Because these are the people who write the laws, regulate how the laws are used and enforced, and additionally erode democracy from within.

I see the danger of terrorism. But that is an obvious evil, clear to identify when you see it, easy to point fingers on it and say "this is evil". But I fear far more the criminal organisations, the organised crimes that governments and their alliances with business lobbies - as well as especially in Europe left-leaning ideological crusaders - have turned into. Because if you point fingers at this and explain the evil in it, then it is much harder to seer for many people, and it will be the public opinion itself turning against you and declare you a phobic - an irrational, mentally ill person that is. Terrorism can be adapted to, can be fought against, can be identified. Political abuse and crime, and totalitarian control of everybody, the silent strangling of freedom - that is like a sling around your neck, and the more you fight against it, the more you get strangled.

Be an obedient dog then. Learn their rules, do not question them, sit still and dance stand on your back legs and wag your tail when they give you a hint. Those who be like that and accept their laws, have nothing to fear.

Only those not accepting the line around their neck and not accepting their rules imposed on them must worry about the law. Haven't we heard this argument not several times in this forum over the past couple for years, at various opportunities. I always get a shiver when I hear some mindless person saying that so carelessly. The speaker have forgotten what unbelievable cruelties and barbaric tyrannies have been made possible under the protection of this parole.

People have live din peace for too long, and in too much luxury and wealth. They take their freedom - or what they call that - for granted, and do not imagine circumstances where they need to defend it, or that it could be taken away from them. And in Europe, things are not getting better by the fact that it ids a social-psychological fact that people, the vast majority, do not crave so much for justice in it's real meaning, but that all and everybody must be made equal. If that equality is the equality of castrated slaves and can only be had at the cost of destroying those who perform and did better than the low and miserable average standard, then this is okay for most people there are as long as the guy living next door is not better off than themselves.

There is neither a reason nor an excuse to trust Western governments. And there are so very much very obvious reasons and arguments and facts recommending exactly the opposite: to not trust governments one bit.

If you think you must choose between two evils, you necessarily always will choose evil. And I put into question whether what many people now would argue to be the "lesser evil", indeed is a lesser evil at all over a longer period of time. I say: it is not.

06-24-13, 03:48 PM	#1
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,834 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	Prism, Tempora - not surprising at all. The Americans have used stations in England since the 70s or early 80s already to overhear over 90% of all telephone and radio communiction in all of Europe, and beyond. With today's technological capacities, the surveillance of any electonic communication is total, I'm sure, and much automated. Surprising only is how little people care. They already are pretty much in nausea, it seems. Of course I do not trust terrorists. It's just that I see zero reason to trust governments either, and week for week I read new evidence and news from all Western world how much my mistrust is justified. The fallout of a total surveillance society with crystal clear transparency of the state's self-declared property units - citizens, that are -, will become evident in the future. Maybe then will people care, if meanwhile for some reason they woke up. It's just that then it will be too late, and the monster will be at the maximum of its power and control. http://www.spiegel.de/international/...-a-907495.html A people not caring for its freedom, does not deserve freedom. Nor respect or sympathy. We all are ruled to become just enslaved numbers. Submit! Obey! Shut up! Praise the system! Die for its lies! Fight for its defence! Believe in its illusions! A new cult is born. Hallelujah! __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

06-24-13, 04:14 PM	#2
Catfish Dipped Squirrel Operative Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: ..where the ocean meets the sky Posts: 17,823 Downloads: 38 Uploads: 0	From the article ^: "The next weeks and months will show whether democratic societies across the world are strong enough to take a stand against the unlimited, totalitarian ambitions of Western secret services -- or not. The governments of the countries in question apparently did not have the necessary backbone. They knew full well that the kind of surveillance being undertaken lacked all democratic legitimacy. But they pursued the programs anyway, behind the backs of their electorates." Nothing to add. Last edited by Catfish; 06-24-13 at 04:51 PM.

06-24-13, 04:40 PM	#3
Wolferz Navy Seal Join Date: May 2007 Location: On a mighty quest for the Stick of Truth Posts: 5,963 Downloads: 52 Uploads: 0	Any society that surrenders even one freedom for security deserves neither and will lose both. I could understand going after the guy with both barrels if he had actually divulged strategic "military" information to a sovereign foreign enemy we are at war with. We are not at war with any sovereign state. We are at war against a religious ideology and stirring the war pot for the next incursion. If we know nothing of the big picture in DC, then it is by design that we are kept ignorant of their actions. Especially when those actions trample on our rights and our constitution. Sure, they claim that there is plenty of oversight with the programs in question but, we all know that politicians are psychopathic liars and they are following the instructions of a relative few elite individuals that preside over the Council on Foreign Relations, the Trilateral Commission and numerous corporate cabals who are seeking unfettered hegemonic control of the planetary resources. Strictly for their own monetary gain. They have nearly solidified their power and they answer to no one.. __________________ Tomorrow never comes

06-24-13, 05:25 PM	#4
Platapus Fleet Admiral Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 19,449 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 0	The world is a very dirty nasty place. Many Citizens can live their lives happy; partly because they don't know what is really happening concerning foreign policy. I wish the world was nice and clean with the good guys wearing white hats and the bad guys wearing black hats. Everyone wears grey hats. Some a little lighter, some a little darker, but all grey. One person's good guy is another person's bad guy. Most people are both good and bad at the same time, depending on viewpoint. I would like to point out that NSA is not some nameless/faceless government entity. It is staffed with almost a million American citizens. Each of which have the same values, ethics, and concerns as many other citizens. Almost a million people who every day they are at work are asking themselves, "Are we operating within the law". Almost a million people who every year raise concerns through appropriate channels where issues are investigated and changes are made. Almost a million people tasked with a very difficult job, in a difficult environment, doing their duty to the best of their ability, every day. Almost a million people who are Americans and are just as concerned with civil rights as we are.. after all, they are citizens too. I know that it is trendy to have the attitude that the "government" is corrupt. Everyone's doing it. I guess all the cool kids can feel superior with their "knowledge" about what happens in the government. But the government is made up of US citizens... just like us. There are good ones, and bad ones... just like us. And imperfect ones... just like us. Same values, same concerns, same desires... We are, after all, a government made up of the people. And some of these people have a very difficult job they do and they do it with professionalism.... every day. And then there are those who are not professional.... just like us. __________________ abusus non tollit usum - A right should NOT be withheld from people on the basis that some tend to abuse that right.

06-24-13, 07:58 PM	#7
August Wayfaring Stranger Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 23,261 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	IMO legality is immaterial. Mass surveillance of the American people without their knowledge let alone permission is just plain wrong. __________________ Flanked by life and the funeral pyre. Putting on a show for you to see.

06-24-13, 06:11 PM	#9
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,834 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	If only it were that simple, Platapus. But what is being established, is like the government having a policeman living in your apartment, overhearing what you talk with your family and people on the phoned and at work, to protect other families from you trying to rob them or breaking into their houses. What is being established is that foreigners in the all the world all get treated like criminals, needed to be assumed as guilty as long as their innocence is not proven. This is especially true for people travelling into the US. Business traffic has dropped into the Us, because many business people simply are pissed. What is being established is a mentality training, to educate people to live naked and totally exposed to the government, without having any control or insight into government's intentions and activities. The government no longer fears the people: the people fear the government. The government is no longer liable and must account to the people, but the people are being held accountable by the government. What is being established is a total digitalization of private sphere and private life, and the ability to just push a button to learn all and everything about people, no matter whether it is security relevant or not. Your whole existence potentially can be destroyed by somebody just accessing a database and using what he finds there about you. Your job. Yiur health insurance. The potential for abuse and blackmailing are endless. Its an abyss opening up there. And lets face it, when it is in monopolistic businesses' profit interest or politicians' interest or finance offices or insurance'S interest to exploit data about you for their own advantage and intention, then they will do it. Because these are the people who write the laws, regulate how the laws are used and enforced, and additionally erode democracy from within. I see the danger of terrorism. But that is an obvious evil, clear to identify when you see it, easy to point fingers on it and say "this is evil". But I fear far more the criminal organisations, the organised crimes that governments and their alliances with business lobbies - as well as especially in Europe left-leaning ideological crusaders - have turned into. Because if you point fingers at this and explain the evil in it, then it is much harder to seer for many people, and it will be the public opinion itself turning against you and declare you a phobic - an irrational, mentally ill person that is. Terrorism can be adapted to, can be fought against, can be identified. Political abuse and crime, and totalitarian control of everybody, the silent strangling of freedom - that is like a sling around your neck, and the more you fight against it, the more you get strangled. Be an obedient dog then. Learn their rules, do not question them, sit still and dance stand on your back legs and wag your tail when they give you a hint. Those who be like that and accept their laws, have nothing to fear. Only those not accepting the line around their neck and not accepting their rules imposed on them must worry about the law. Haven't we heard this argument not several times in this forum over the past couple for years, at various opportunities. I always get a shiver when I hear some mindless person saying that so carelessly. The speaker have forgotten what unbelievable cruelties and barbaric tyrannies have been made possible under the protection of this parole. People have live din peace for too long, and in too much luxury and wealth. They take their freedom - or what they call that - for granted, and do not imagine circumstances where they need to defend it, or that it could be taken away from them. And in Europe, things are not getting better by the fact that it ids a social-psychological fact that people, the vast majority, do not crave so much for justice in it's real meaning, but that all and everybody must be made equal. If that equality is the equality of castrated slaves and can only be had at the cost of destroying those who perform and did better than the low and miserable average standard, then this is okay for most people there are as long as the guy living next door is not better off than themselves. There is neither a reason nor an excuse to trust Western governments. And there are so very much very obvious reasons and arguments and facts recommending exactly the opposite: to not trust governments one bit. If you think you must choose between two evils, you necessarily always will choose evil. And I put into question whether what many people now would argue to be the "lesser evil", indeed is a lesser evil at all over a longer period of time. I say: it is not. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.