Wakeless Mark 16...can anyone with the knowledge do this?

[Armistead]

The M14 wasn't totally wakeless, left a mild wake from the H202 process, but it could hardly be seen, except in very calm water. My guess is even if you remove it's wake, the game sees it as a steam torp. Maybe it could be switched to electric.

[Stealhead]

Doing some scanning around on Uboat.net I found several discussions on hydrogen peroxide powered torpedoes from what I can gather they if properly operating did not leave a wake because the hydrogen peroxide was completely consumed and did not leave behind a bubble generating by product as an air,oxygen,or kerosene powered torpedo would.

Basically H2O2 completely consumes O2 so no bubbles.

The fuel so far as I can tell in all H2O2 torpedoes was HTP(high test hydrogen peroxide). Apparently some naval forces are still using Swedish H2O2 torpedoes.

Here is a link to several discussions on H2O2 torpedoes http://uboat.net/forums/read.php?20,...5148#msg-85148

[TorpX]

Originally Posted by Stealhead

Doing some scanning around on Uboat.net I found several discussions on hydrogen peroxide powered torpedoes from what I can gather they if properly operating did not leave a wake because the hydrogen peroxide was completely consumed and did not leave behind a bubble generating by product as an air,oxygen,or kerosene powered torpedo would.

Basically H2O2 completely consumes O2 so no bubbles.

Hydrogen peroxide is an oxidizer and while it could be used by itself (undergoing rapid exothermic decomposition), it is likely it was used with some kind of hydrocarbon fuel, like so:

(fuel) + H2O2 > H2O (steam) + CO2

So you get steam and carbon dioxide. The steam will condense quickly, and supposidly most of the CO2 will also. I've read most of the bubble trail of steam torpedoes comes from the nitrogen, as air supplies the oxygen for the combustion and 80% of air is nitrogen.

In spite of what I've read, I find it hard to believe any fuel torpedo is completely trackless. Honestly, I think the whole wake business is very much overblown. Many ships were sunk by steam torpedoes, so the bubble track didn't seem to do the target ships much good.

[Stealhead]

Originally Posted by TorpX

Many ships were sunk by steam torpedoes, so the bubble track didn't seem to do the target ships much good.

I cant find any solid information about the Mk.16 so you may be correct and no place with more reliable technical data does it imply that this was an feature or advantage.

However simply because many ships where sunk by steam torpedoes does not prove that the disadvantage of a track is overblown.For starters in many cases during WWI and WWII(depending on date and navy) they where the only type of torpedo available so of course they are going to sink a lot of ships being the only torpedo available.

If there was no chance of spotting a wake or that it made no difference then it would have made little sense to have the lookouts look for wakes it the first place.Navies the world over trained with dummy torpedoes that passed under hulls of course this was dual training because the sub is trying to attack without getting spotted and the ship to spot the wake of a torpedo or a periscope in time to evade if one spotted a periscope the vigilance for wakes of torpedoes would greatly increase.Why they would spend so much time and effort on this if it did give some obvious advantage seems strange.

I think that you underestimate the disadvantage of a wake and it seems evident that many ships did in fact spot wakes and take evasive action.

Many US submarine where attacked or witnessed targets firing at the wakes of their torpedo tracks so they where obviously fairly visible and from a greater range it is very feasible for a ships lookouts to spot and report a track and for the ship to counter in time this is part of the logic for firing a spread of torpedoes the is to account for any possible errors in aim.

[joefremont]

The MK16 was infact a modified MK14 with H2O2 instead of the air bottle and a larger warhead. My experience using it in the game is that it does have a smaller wake as the targets less likely to try to evade them than the MK14 but I did read that later in the war the Japanese installed sonar on merchant ships so that even if the MK16 was wakeless it was not silent and any merchant that heard a torpedo in the water is going to start turning to evade it, that may be what your noticing as the targets 'detecting' the torpedo.

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by joefremont

The MK16 was infact a modified MK14 with H2O2 instead of the air bottle and a larger warhead. My experience using it in the game is that it does have a smaller wake as the targets less likely to try to evade them than the MK16 but I did read that later in the war the Japanese installed sonar on merchant ships so that even if the MK16 was wakeless it was not silent and any merchant that heard a torpedo in the water is going to start turning to evade it, that may be what your noticing as the targets 'detecting' the torpedo.

The game does not mirror their ability to detect torpedoes on sonar, as far as I know but that would make sense. If so, they would detect the Mark 18's but they never do.Game either see's a torpedo or it does not, regardless of the wake that we see, they do not detect mark 18's or mark 27 homing torpedos.The game with it's limitations, is very black and white sometimes, they either see a torpedo or they dont.I am thinking a mark 16 that enemy AI treats like Mark 18 would be a reasonable way to mimic the minimal wake of te mark 16 and justify the high cost if player chooses to use them in later war.

[Armistead]

I see your point Bubble, but never really messed with torps. Did you not say that someone once removed the wake, but they still spotted the torp as if it had a wake? If so, just makes me wonder if the wake we see is a mere texture, visual eye candy, that has no effect on how the AI sees a steam torpedo. I couldn't say what parameters set the AI off to see them, but maybe it isn't the wake. Anyway, I'll look at the torp files when I get home, be interesting to see what values exist regarding wakes or no wakes. I do recall seeing a value for trail and fairly sure several exist where you can adjust wake. Just wonder what would happen if you deleted the wake texture for the M16.....have you tried just as a test?

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by Armistead

The M14 wasn't totally wakeless, left a mild wake from the H202 process, but it could hardly be seen, except in very calm water. My guess is even if you remove it's wake, the game sees it as a steam torp. Maybe it could be switched to electric.

I know but like so many things in SH 4, no in middle ground so think that to to immunlate the "barely visible" wake and the advantage it provides should have undetectable to the AI like the Mark 17.I have no idea switch it but figured could be made where the AI treats like a Mark 18 electric torpedo, doesnt detect it until, well its over.

[Armistead]

On my laptop out of town, but will look at files. If someone removed the tex wake, my guess is that in itself doesn't solve it. I haven't looked in the torp files in a long time, but maybe a way to resolve it.

I know what you mean by those late war shallow convoys, usually packed with deadly TypeA-D escorts.