AI Radar = does it work at all

gap · 06-12-13, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace11

...any R01 sensor entries in the .sns file are irrelevant if no node of that name is present on the ship!

Elementary, my dear Watson

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace11

Is this premise correct:

If the wavelength of a Type 271 is 100mm and wavelength is a direct function of surface area detected 100mm x 100 mm = 0.01 m2

Your assumption seems logical, though minimum detectable area might be also affected by a bunch of other factors, including how reflective to radiations is the target surface.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace11

Sensor entries in the AI_sensors library appear to be used in preference to the ones in the sim.cfg. Not sure if this is true for the surface area detected.

Talking about min surface, I guess both sim.cfg and sim file settings are applied. As I see it, "Enemy surface factor" in sim.cfg file is sort of a global factor which gets multiplied by the individual surface property of each radar.

V13dweller · 06-12-13, 06:27 PM

I will do some tests today to see if I can get any more radars to work.

And what to the C and D nodes do?
I have tried putting Radars onto the C01 and D01 nodes, but I cannot seem to get them to work.

I think the in game radar system needs an overhaul.
I will be willing to help with it.

Does anyone have a stock Sim.cfg?
I might have a look through that to find more info on the game radars.

Also a stock Guns Radars .sim could help.

I even decreased the minimum surface factor to 0.0001 and the ship still did not effectively use it's radar.
It just used it to locate and attack the target once in range.

Some ships also have multiple Radar nodes, like R01 and R02, and the Bismarck has the R03.
Even with this devastating array of sensors, it still can not effectively use them to target and attack using just the radar.

Jace11 · 06-12-13, 09:20 PM

Not sure what C and D nodes are for, didnt SH3 have Huff Duff so maybe that is D. They aren't used in any ships I've looked at. They are usually on or near the bridge. They should work as dummy nodes for radar if you specify C01 to have the right type in the .sns file. If this approach isn't working, I don't know why, but I've added R01 nodes to all the escorts that are missing them.

In relation to your wish to get fire control radars to fire guns through fog, I don't think they are in game as a radar "type". I have seen ships fire through fog at targets that are in visual range of other friendlies. So they can blind fire - sort of... at the moment, I'm not looking at this though.

In goblin editor it states for some sensor values that if 0 the value is read from the sim.cfg. So the opposite is true if not 0 the value is read from the AI_sensors.sim instead. It does not state this for surface area detected, but it might still do this.

Guns_radars just seems to have the director model for the fletcher, it has no sensor values. It is just a model. So are the other radar models in that file. They do nothing for gameplay.

The ships I have modded seem to detect me now fine. A Town class with a type271 detected me in thick fog on calm seas at around 6km. It turned toward at full speed etc then attacked when in range.

The various radar nodes could be used to attach air search and sea search to the same ship, though I don't see the point in this at the moment, as the radars (even the surface searchers) all work up to high altitude and have the elevation and traverse to detect anything large enough. Plus only surface search is important to gameplay, but it could be looked at later.

I used R01 for the director on the fletcher and cloned it to R02 to add SC, SG etc as war progresses. Seems to work.

With regards to wavelengths I ask because as I understood it radar wavelengths determine target size for detection. Most of the centimetrics in the game are set to detect 0.3 by default and in goblin editor the units are supposedly m2 (that what it says anyway). Centimetric radars were approx 100mm wavelength and 10cm x 10cm = 0.01 m2 i.e many times more sensitive than the 0.3m2 listed.

I can upload the escorts from my sea folder for testing purposes. Also the AI_sensors etc would be needed. I basically went through all the radars listed and found their wavelengths on the net / books etc then converted that to surface area as above and re-entered the new values. Not touched range or anything else. Its just my sea folder contains a whole load of other mods, like my new Town Class that I'm working on, removed ship reflections etc buffed DC loadouts and other stuff.

Some aircraft do have radar, the Sunderland, the Catalina and the Heavy bomber all have R01 nodes and corresponding ASV radars in their sns files, and I'm pretty sure I didnt put that in (maybe I did though - and forgot!). The Swordfish, the Buccaneer and perhaps 1 or 2 other could have it added. The swordfish used early ASV to detect bismarck in 41, and the Buccaneer in game is a effectively a proxy for the Avenger which also carried ASV later on.

Thing is making these changes will make the game seriously more difficult in 41 - 43. I haven't got near a convoy for a long time now in my 43 campaign... its horrific!

http://www.gamefront.com/files/23404686/Escorts.zip

contains all sorts, not JSGME ready, this is all WIP at the moment, you can probably enable it easy enough though.

V13dweller · 06-12-13, 11:07 PM

I know the FuMO23 the Bismarck was built with had a range of 25 Kilometers, due to how high the set sat on the ship.

I have modified the Bismarck to have a the three FuMO23's it had in real life, and with three radars that have their default traverse to be 180 degrees it would have almost a full view around it, and it should be able to use these three radars to fire at enemies through fog.

Bismarck was also armed with many range finders that could be pointed in the direction of an enemy (Found on Radar) to detect and attack them.

I'm going to do some more tests later today, if you want me to create mission editor missions with any ship/sub you want in it, I could whip one up for you. (I have used ME2 for a long time , so I can use it very well.)

gap · 06-13-13, 04:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace11

Not sure what C and D nodes are for, didnt SH3 have Huff Duff so maybe that is D.

Yes, this is correct: C nodes werer meant for radar warning receivers, and D for radio direction finders. The new SH5 obj_sensor controller doesn't accept these types. I wonder if using the old SHIII controller on SH5 units would work for the missing sensors

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace11

With regards to wavelengths I ask because as I understood it radar wavelengths determine target size for detection. Most of the centimetrics in the game are set to detect 0.3 by default and in goblin editor the units are supposedly m2 (that what it says anyway). Centimetric radars were approx 100mm wavelength and 10cm x 10cm = 0.01 m2 i.e many times more sensitive than the 0.3m2 listed.

Again, your assumption seems reasonable; going by what I know about wave propagation in general, long wavelenghts would basically "jump" over small targets. However, nowhere I have read that radar sensitiveness and wavelenght used are in direct relation. On the contrary, most sources I have consulted state that wavelenght has an effect on detection accuracy which, I think, is a slightly different concept.

Mikemike47 · 06-13-13, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gap

The new SH5 obj_sensor controller doesn't accept these types. I wonder if using the old SHIII controller on SH5 units would work for the missing sensors

Is the new SH5 obj_sensor controller something TDW could fix this to accept these types? What purpose is the obj_sensor controller used for now?

gap · 06-13-13, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikemike47

Is the new SH5 obj_sensor controller something TDW could fix this to accept these types? What purpose is the obj_sensor controller used for now?

Talking about AI sensors (player sensors use a different set of controllers), they all share the same obj_sensor controller. The sensor type is determined by the 'type' property. Valid entries for the SH5 version of the controller are: Lookout, Radar, Hydrophone and Sonar. SHIII version of the controller also accept Radarwarning and RadioDF.

Normally, older controllers are accepted by the SH5 engine, though with some limitations. In this case, for sure SHIII's obj_sensor is missing the possibility of setting different sensivities at various azimuth angles. SH5 on turn could be missing the code for RWR and RDF sensors, but checking them could be worth anyway.

Jace11 · 06-13-13, 05:19 PM

RWR is in the uboat sensors as a type for metox etc.. can you not just pull it across from the other file. AI subs use sensors from there.

I might try and edit type 286, so it is more realistic, it didnt have turning antenna, just fixed ones, I think usually 4, one on each side and the bearing was deduced by turning the ship. It might be interesting as you could probably evade it quite easily once detected, could lead to some interesting chases.. - ah no screw that, I thought the sensors could be given limited sweep sectors like turrets can. You could do it by having 4 nodes I guess but too time consuming.

Might also add nodes to swordfish and avenger.

GatorBMC · 01-18-15, 12:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace11

http://www.gamefront.com/files/23404686/Escorts.zip

Link is no longer functioning.

Stary Wuj · 03-10-21, 09:01 AM

Excuse me, any working link for this mod?

Thank You!

Stary Wuj

06-12-13, 09:20 PM	#3
Jace11 Seasoned Skipper Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: UK Posts: 683 Downloads: 104 Uploads: 1	Not sure what C and D nodes are for, didnt SH3 have Huff Duff so maybe that is D. They aren't used in any ships I've looked at. They are usually on or near the bridge. They should work as dummy nodes for radar if you specify C01 to have the right type in the .sns file. If this approach isn't working, I don't know why, but I've added R01 nodes to all the escorts that are missing them. In relation to your wish to get fire control radars to fire guns through fog, I don't think they are in game as a radar "type". I have seen ships fire through fog at targets that are in visual range of other friendlies. So they can blind fire - sort of... at the moment, I'm not looking at this though. In goblin editor it states for some sensor values that if 0 the value is read from the sim.cfg. So the opposite is true if not 0 the value is read from the AI_sensors.sim instead. It does not state this for surface area detected, but it might still do this. Guns_radars just seems to have the director model for the fletcher, it has no sensor values. It is just a model. So are the other radar models in that file. They do nothing for gameplay. The ships I have modded seem to detect me now fine. A Town class with a type271 detected me in thick fog on calm seas at around 6km. It turned toward at full speed etc then attacked when in range. The various radar nodes could be used to attach air search and sea search to the same ship, though I don't see the point in this at the moment, as the radars (even the surface searchers) all work up to high altitude and have the elevation and traverse to detect anything large enough. Plus only surface search is important to gameplay, but it could be looked at later. I used R01 for the director on the fletcher and cloned it to R02 to add SC, SG etc as war progresses. Seems to work. With regards to wavelengths I ask because as I understood it radar wavelengths determine target size for detection. Most of the centimetrics in the game are set to detect 0.3 by default and in goblin editor the units are supposedly m2 (that what it says anyway). Centimetric radars were approx 100mm wavelength and 10cm x 10cm = 0.01 m2 i.e many times more sensitive than the 0.3m2 listed. I can upload the escorts from my sea folder for testing purposes. Also the AI_sensors etc would be needed. I basically went through all the radars listed and found their wavelengths on the net / books etc then converted that to surface area as above and re-entered the new values. Not touched range or anything else. Its just my sea folder contains a whole load of other mods, like my new Town Class that I'm working on, removed ship reflections etc buffed DC loadouts and other stuff. Some aircraft do have radar, the Sunderland, the Catalina and the Heavy bomber all have R01 nodes and corresponding ASV radars in their sns files, and I'm pretty sure I didnt put that in (maybe I did though - and forgot!). The Swordfish, the Buccaneer and perhaps 1 or 2 other could have it added. The swordfish used early ASV to detect bismarck in 41, and the Buccaneer in game is a effectively a proxy for the Avenger which also carried ASV later on. Thing is making these changes will make the game seriously more difficult in 41 - 43. I haven't got near a convoy for a long time now in my 43 campaign... its horrific! http://www.gamefront.com/files/23404686/Escorts.zip contains all sorts, not JSGME ready, this is all WIP at the moment, you can probably enable it easy enough though. Last edited by Jace11; 06-12-13 at 09:44 PM.

03-10-21, 09:01 AM	#10
Stary Wuj Lieutenant Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Poland, Zabrze Posts: 268 Downloads: 36 Uploads: 0	Hi :-) Excuse me, any working link for this mod? Thank You! Stary Wuj

06-12-13, 06:27 PM	#2
V13dweller Grey Wolf Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 768 Downloads: 101 Uploads: 2	I will do some tests today to see if I can get any more radars to work. And what to the C and D nodes do? I have tried putting Radars onto the C01 and D01 nodes, but I cannot seem to get them to work. I think the in game radar system needs an overhaul. I will be willing to help with it. Does anyone have a stock Sim.cfg? I might have a look through that to find more info on the game radars. Also a stock Guns Radars .sim could help. I even decreased the minimum surface factor to 0.0001 and the ship still did not effectively use it's radar. It just used it to locate and attack the target once in range. Some ships also have multiple Radar nodes, like R01 and R02, and the Bismarck has the R03. Even with this devastating array of sensors, it still can not effectively use them to target and attack using just the radar.

06-12-13, 11:07 PM	#4
V13dweller Grey Wolf Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 768 Downloads: 101 Uploads: 2	I know the FuMO23 the Bismarck was built with had a range of 25 Kilometers, due to how high the set sat on the ship. I have modified the Bismarck to have a the three FuMO23's it had in real life, and with three radars that have their default traverse to be 180 degrees it would have almost a full view around it, and it should be able to use these three radars to fire at enemies through fog. Bismarck was also armed with many range finders that could be pointed in the direction of an enemy (Found on Radar) to detect and attack them. I'm going to do some more tests later today, if you want me to create mission editor missions with any ship/sub you want in it, I could whip one up for you. (I have used ME2 for a long time , so I can use it very well.)

06-13-13, 05:19 PM	#8
Jace11 Seasoned Skipper Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: UK Posts: 683 Downloads: 104 Uploads: 1	RWR is in the uboat sensors as a type for metox etc.. can you not just pull it across from the other file. AI subs use sensors from there. I might try and edit type 286, so it is more realistic, it didnt have turning antenna, just fixed ones, I think usually 4, one on each side and the bearing was deduced by turning the ship. It might be interesting as you could probably evade it quite easily once detected, could lead to some interesting chases.. - ah no screw that, I thought the sensors could be given limited sweep sectors like turrets can. You could do it by having 4 nodes I guess but too time consuming. Might also add nodes to swordfish and avenger.